Why there has not been an agreement for a Palestinian state
If your solution to the problem is "get rid of Israel," you can stop reading right here. I'm going to explain why the situation is complicated and what issues would have to be resolved to reach an agreement. This is not about a unified Israeli-Palestinian state either; I'm addressing the obstacles to the two-state solution.
1. Jerusalem: This city has holy sites sacred to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Any final settlement will have to address access not just by Israelis and Palestinians, but for people from all over the world. The Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque are built on top of the Second Jewish Temple, so it's not like the area can be divided. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is also nearby. The city could be placed under the control of an international coalition, but it's unlikely that either side will agree to this.
2. Settlements: Legal or not, there are close to 150 settlements in the West Bank with around half a million residents combined. Dismantling these and moving them into Israel proper would be a much larger undertaking than it was to dismantle the settlements in Gaza in 2006. That doesn't mean it would be impossible, just difficult. The settlers could also be given the opportunity to move on their own or become residents of the future Palestinian state.
3. Borders: Linked to the above concern is where the border between Israel and Palestine would be drawn. The 2003 proposal included land swaps, where settlements close to the Green Line would be part of Israel, while Gaza would get more land to make up for it. This also included a secure highway between the two areas.
4. Refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Arabs were either expelled from what is now Israel or left voluntarily. Since then, they have been treated differently from any other group of refugees, with their own United Nations agency specifically for them (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East or UNRWA). They have also been prohibited from becoming citizens of the countries they reside in. The result of this has been to grow their numbers to around 6 million people today as they enter their fourth generation. The "Right of Return" is the demand that they be allowed to return to their homes in Israel as part of a peace agreement. Israel has resisted this as it would end the Jewish majority. Like it or not, sovereign countries are entitled to control who is allowed to immigrate into them for whatever reasons they choose. Past attempts to create a Palestinian state were derailed by this issue.
5. Security: Shortly after Israel pulled out of Gaza, Hamas was elected and began using it as a staging ground for attacks. Understandably, Israel doesn't want to create the same situation in the West Bank. A future Palestinian state would have to be demilitarized. The Palestinian leadership has shown that it either cannot control this violence, or in the case of Hamas, they're instigating it. Occupation of the Palestinian state by Israel would also be unacceptable. One proposal is for a coalition consisting of Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia to provide security for Palestine, with the goal of handing power over to the Palestinians once they demonstrate their willingness to live in peace with their neighbors.
I'm fine with any disagreements with any of the above points as long as they're not just "Israel has no right to exist" or "everything is Israel's fault." I'm also aware that the current Likud government is opposed to a Palestinian state. However, one role the US could play would be to push Israel to work toward solutions to the above obstacles, but that would require not just the cooperation of Israel and the Palestinians, but the surrounding countries as well.
1/ you are right in your statement that historic Palestine (modern day Israel +the Palestinian Territories) is an important place for all Abrahamic religions However using religion is not a good tactic here.
01/ You don’t have a Christian/jewish /muslim empire or army or country or government ruling over the land and its locals and influencing/pressuring /persecuting them to convert But you have a project of massive settler colonialism that is rooted and revolves around displacement of the locals and replacing them with foreigners of different origins as long as they identify with -zionist- Judaism in any way shape or form including conversion. The locals of historic Palestine’s issue has nothing to do with any religion in particular. If what happened to Palestinians was done to them by Christians or Hindus or Buddhists or Muslims their reaction would have been the exact same. If you displace internally And externally 70% of any land’s local population and continue to do it over the decades with various forms of supression you’ll get resistance. And resistance in history almost has never been peaceful.
It is true that majority of the locals of historic Palestine are Muslim But Islamic conquest happened in 600s But the Levant only became majority Muslim in 12th century
“” Although Arab armies quickly established an Islamic empire during the seventh and eighth centuries, it took far longer for an Islamic society to emerge within its frontiers. Indeed, despite widespread images of “conversion by the sword” in popular culture, the process of Islamisation in the early period was slow, complex, and often non-violent. Forced conversion was fairly uncommon, and religious change was driven far more by factors such as intermarriage, economic self-interest, and political allegiance
the Middle East became predominantly Muslim far later than an older generation of scholars once assumed. Although we lack reliable demographic data from the pre-modern period with which we could make precise estimates (such as censuses or tax registers), historians surmise that Syria-Palestine crossed the threshold of a Muslim demographic majority in the 12th century, while Egypt may have passed this benchmark even later, possibly in the 14th””-Oxford paper
So historic Palestine only became majority Muslim in 12th century which is centuries after the Islamic conquest. Due to a slow process of conversion with ofc incidents of pressure and persecution to convert . There is also a historic and genetic census That Arabs from the Arabian peninsula DID not mass genocide / exile the locals of Palestine and replace them that simply NEVER happened . Some Arabs did migrate and settle there but it was homogeneous. They speak Arabic because the Middle East and North Africa was Arabized and Arabic became the language where all of these people could communicate under arab empires like Latin including the Jews who lived in mena.
The locals of historic Palestine by the time the British empire came to them Were a natural product of local people with various intermixing due to their long history of being ruled by various empires.
02/ if it was a civil war between the Muslim locals vs the Jewish locals due to religious beef I would say well we have no control over it it’s their issue. But that wasn’t what happened. The locals were majority Muslim even in ottoman and British mandate. It was the continuous mass migration of European foreigners that kept changing the religious demographic And worse , they wanting their own land on someone else’s land that was the issue. Israel was the product of European settler colonialism and imperialism. The other Jews came AFTER the creation of Israel Mainly from mena and they only migrated to Israel due to Israeli pressure , the deterioration of the Arab states due to internal problems post colonialism , and various persecutions as a reaction to Zionism which happened AFTER the nakba and the Holocaust the Palestinians experienced . Religious revenge happened throughout history
Many Christians did x massacre to take revenge on Muslim y Massacre and vice versa So Muslim lands persecuted their Jews to get revenge for majority Muslim Palestine being persecuted by Jews
Is it right? Obviously not but regardless Israel would have been created either way. So it is irrelevant. Even the mena jews r not local. Anyone who leaves his home to take someone’s home in another village city land etc is a criminal.
2/ “settlements legal or not “
Theyr illegal full stop don’t try to downplay it. Illegal settlements coupled with settler violence ignored by Israeli authorities, military violence, children military court , restrictions on movement and far more .
If an average American was undergoing this they’d not hesitate to grab their rifles and guns .
3-4/ Israel regardless of government have always opposed to two state solution and their continues illegal settlement expansions in the West Bank is an evidence of it . They keep postponing the two state solution while increasing the illegal settlements to make that an impossible option. Take any look at figures of how much the settlements have grown over the years. Not seeing the strategy makes you a liar and a b*tch with no due respect. Respect is given to who deserves it.
I have also noticed how the Zionist project keeps calling them “arabs “ This ambiguous word. Call them what they are Theyr the locals of historic Palestine. Because calling Them -just- “Arabs “ is a deliberate nasty move to create a different narrative Which everyone can see through. Call them the locals of historic Palestine .
There is no Israel and Palestine. It was one land bunch of foreigners came from abroad expelled masses of people from their local places (villages , cities , towns ) which now exist within what we refer to as the state of Israel created Jewish majority zone and said to them bye bye don’t come back lol Then kept expanding since with no boarders. And didn’t allow those it expelled abroad to return or those it expelled internally to return And imposed never ending occupation / apartheid over the remaining historic Palestinian Territories that r in the process of becoming Israel And Israel never allowed them to return in violation of international law so ur wrong you don’t have a right as you claimed you violated the Vienna Convention.
5/ the west loves to preach about democracy until it does not suit them. Hamas was elected democratically by the people of Gaza Once they came to power Israel immediately started a siege Israel never pulled out of Gaza btw they just pulled out the settlements that’s all. And it’s funny how you say the future Palestinian state must be demilitarized 😂who are you to demand ? “X security not y security “ IDF has a horrible criminal record Way too much violence Worse than Hamas. the IDF monkeys did everything you claim Hamas did but a million times worse.
You talk with a superiority tone And with that tone you definitely deserve all the hate you get. Get a psychological evaluation.
6/ as a Saudi Arabian ,don’t dump ur problems on us or others. Also i believe the locals of historic Palestine should deal with this the way they want. If they want to fight and try defeat their enemy they shall And if they want to make peace and forgive the bastards and create a two state solution they shall. I have no opinion regarding other peoples struggles . What’s funny tho major players in the region like my own already agreed with the two state solution The Palestinian authority which is mostly a slave to Israel also did It’s the Israeli government that has never wanted it.
“ Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.” - the times of Israel.
Hamas is purely the product of any violent settler colony and is moved by invisible strings by the Israeli government .
I don’t agree with Hamas strategies by the way But i don’t see any crime Hamas did that Israel did not do whether today or in the past and a tiny look at the current genocide will make anyone vomit over and over . So If u wanna designate Hamas as terrorist then go ahead but only if you include the IDF and the Israeli government . Hamas 100% had a legal right to attack Israel on 7/10 Did they do wrong things ? Yes Just like Israel does in almost all of its operations including the current genocide Step down from ur high moral horse
7/ there are millions of ethnic groups around the world and most nations r comprised of multi ethnic groups and not one. Many of those ethnic groups prefer to have their own state or at least a state where they’r the majority and most of the time you achieve it through power. So i do not blame the Jews for wanting a Jewish state But if you are gonna do it , do it by buying a piece of land or going to an empty land or starting a civil war in a land ur locals of But You went to a populated land thriving in culture and history and in the heart of the world and decided to make a majority non Jewish land into a majority Jewish state Not by conversion but by unnatural mass migrations and subsequent displacement that continues to this day.
The biggest issue is treating it as two sides and complicated issue
One is a nuclear regional power with the support of USA/nato with an army and navy and Air Force Against people they literally occupy under military rule with none of the above except a small resistance group in jenin camp their weapon collection consists of rocks , Molotov cocktails and some guns.
And Hamas in Gaza who also has none of the above except for snuck in or home made modest weapons .
All I ask is to respect my human brain cells I don’t think it is too much .
Please don’t come and say we are the locals but we have been removed 2000- 4000 years ago from our land and this justifies our crimes 😂 Not only is that not an excuse to displace a local population of at -least- 2000-4000 years according to ur counting but it’s not entirely true either
@Moon3624 Both groups are descended from both indigenous people and immigrants. Even Yasser Arafat was Egyptian. What you can't seem to understand is that people have a right to live in peace based solely on where they reside, not where their grandfather came from. By that standard, I have no right to live in the US, and I should give my house to a Yamacraw, assuming I can find one. Ultimately, it doesn't matter where the Israeli Jews and Palestinians came from. What matters is where they are now.
You missed the entire point of my post, which had nothing to do with the reasons for the conflict. I was talking about the current situation and making suggestions for moving forward. You are prolonging the conflict by focusing on the past. I'm trying to solve it by understanding the present and looking toward the future - a future which should include both Israelis and Palestinians.
@LeopoldBloom “Both groups are descended from both indigenous people and immigrants. Even Yasser Arafat was Egyptian”
Arafat’s grandmother from his father side is Egyptian but his mother’s side is Palestinian and his family home is in Palestine. And even if we say he’s 100% Egyptian Few examples here and there aside , the massive chunk of palestians r locals. Whether the one still in it or forced abroad out of it.
Plus Things like intermarriage and legal migrations are not a good example bc that’s the norm anywhere.
Or are you claiming that the Jewish immigrants who came in late 1800s and mostly in 1900s arrived to an empty land with no one living in it ?😂 I can literally give you name of a village / city after the other with their population count before the Zionist project.
It’s not about jews having a right to live in the land or not It’s about how the land was majority non Jewish And then a massive flock of foreigners from abroad who just happened to be Jewish too Came and depopulated the land massively through violence and force to create a Jewish majority demographic. You denying how horrible this was Is like someone denying the Holocaust You literally downplay it as if it’s nothing. It’s not a jews it’s about settler colonialism.
“. What you can't seem to understand is that people have a right to live in peace based solely on where they reside, not where their grandfather came from. ”
I actually agree that’s why a massive group of foreigners coming to the land from abroad displacing and replacing 70% of the population who were residing in that land based on the claim that each one of them decedent from someone who was here 2000-4000 years ago Is what started this mess in the first place. and they still come from America or elsewhere while the locals residing in the land r suffering or kicked out of it unable to return to their homeland.
“You missed the entire point of my post, which had nothing to do with the reasons for the conflict. I was talking about the current situation and making suggestions for moving forward. You are prolonging the conflict by focusing on the past. ”
I did not prolong the conflict or focus on the past I just fixed or added commentary to ur points . Im pretty sure the conflict was started by Zionists and prolonged by Zionists.
@Moon3624 White Trump supporters are upset about the number of Latinos, Haitians, Arabs, and other "non-white" immigrants that they think are entering the country and changing its culture. Do you support them?
@jehova All military aid to Israel must be spent here, so it's a program for American military contractors. It also creates a market for additional purchases of replacement parts and disposable units. To simplify it, if you give a man a gun, you will later be able to sell him bullets. In the long term, this keeps the US at a state of constant readiness. Instead of having to ramp up production as we did for World War Two, converting typewriter factories into munitions producers, military suppliers are in business continually.
It's fine if you want to object to this, but it's a feature of the US being a world empire and spending 3.8% of its GDP on its military. Pointing to Israel as the cause of this is missing the forest for the trees. If Israel didn't exist, we'd have to find some other country to provide military aid to, for the same reason.
@LeopoldBloom and its a waste of resources lives and effort. We need to pay our bills and look out for our citizens. We have plenty of money weapons sales isnt much.
@jehova I agree that it's a waste of resources. If we want to keep military suppliers in readiness, we can subsidize them. NATO only requires us to spend 2% of our GDP on the military, and we're spending 3.8%. Part of this could be realigned to infrastructure improvement.
Nice summary to update me and others about the relevant issues. Believe it or not, I had a grad school class in the 1980s, whete we focused on these issues as they stood back then. It has gotten far worse since then.
Define "Israel" is it only a zionist state or should it be someplace where there is a separation of church and state. The later is the only way i see this working. Making it a 51st or a 52nd state seems impossible and makes the US into an empire. Might as well make Great Britain the 53rd state. With a bit more effort we could probably annex Russia. Just give the folks there back their McDonalds and regular garbage service. Mexico and Canada? Just stop controlling who comes and goes. Carribbean? Go in and wipe out the gangs.
@Tastyfrzz That’s why I didn’t put that suggestion into the original post. The goal is for both sides to be able to exercise self-determination. Whether there is separation of church and state is an internal matter. Are you also opposed to a Palestinian state if the government is Islamic?
@Tastyfrzz Israel is secular while Hamas wants an Islamic caliphate. However, the only overt theocracy in the region, if not the entire world, is Iran. Just because a country has an official religion doesn't mean anything. Anglicanism is the official church of England, but other than funding some cathedrals and paying salaries to a few bishops, the country is completely secular. You won't hear anyone in Parliament saying that they're passing a law because God wants it.
It's impossible to keep religion completely out of government as politicians will inevitably be influenced by their core beliefs, which can include religion. What you can do is require them to make a secular argument for any laws they propose, even if their personal basis for the law is religious.
You will walk on the sun eating ice cream before the Zionists allow a two-state solution in the area. They fully intend to purge Gaza and the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, northern Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to the Nile River. And the second part of their plan is to force the Jews who live around the world to move to those conquered lands and create the "Greater Israel."
@Diotrephes I'm sure you can find quotes supporting that, just as I can find quotes from Hamas leaders saying their goal is to purge the land of Jews and establish a caliphate. But there's no official Israeli policy about "greater Israel" or forcing Jews around the world to move there, while the Hamas Charter is clear on what their intentions are.
You would know that if you did actual research instead of cherry-picking from Stormfront and other Nazi sources.
You would know that if you did actual research instead of cherry-picking from Stormfront and other Nazi sources.
Nothing is more of a Nazi source than the Zionist politicians. They are the enemy of everyone on the planet.
By the way, have you noticed how they have started attacking Lebanon in the quest to purge the Levant of all non-Jews? Expect attacks against Syria and Jordan within a year.
From Scratch: ‘Greater Israel’ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231117-from-scratch-greater-israel/
What is Greater Israel? Why is the idea not acceptable to the Palestinians and Islamists https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-knowledge/what-is-greater-israel-why-is-the-idea-not-acceptable-to-the-muslim-community-1621507466-1
@Diotrephes They started attacking Lebanon because your friends in Hezbollah have been lobbing rockets at them for the past decade. If Syria and Jordan attack them, they will respond. How do you think the US would respond to Mexico firing rockets into San Diego?
Palestinians and Islamists don't just object to the fantasy of "Greater Israel;" they object to any form of Jewish self-determination on formerly Muslim lands. Israel could shrink down to a neighborhood in Tel Aviv and even that would be unacceptable.
By the way, thank you for admitting that your "solution" is the same as Hamas' - the death of every Jew in the world. Anyone reading this shouldn't be surprised when Israel seemingly responds out of proportion to the initial provocation. It's not just a land dispute, it's an existential threat.
@Quetzalcoatlus Not really. Since all of it must be spent here in the US, it’s really a program for American military contractors, and will continue even if Israel is at peace.
As a slight tongue in cheek comment, Israel had no problems dismantling the settlements in Gaza .... Having said that, the entire issue is a good indictment on why it's time to question religions, their baggage and relevance
@Convivial There weren’t anywhere near as many Gaza settlements, and for security they required ten times as many soldiers as settlers, so it wasn’t sustainable.
@LeopoldBloom we should withold funds and weapons until peace talks commence and\or a resolution is reached. In the interest of peace. And a balanced budget.
@LeopoldBloom Under Bibi? Hmm. I don’t think so considering his coalition is made up of some really unsavory Jewish nationalists and he looks the other way at settlement creep.
I do agree Oct 7 made the idea of a Palestinian state impossible. Hamas would just take over such a state. A semi-autonomous region would make more sense, but Israeli action in the West Bank is making that impossible, too.
@Bumbles I agree that Bibi needs to go. The problem is that he knows his coalition is razor-thin and if it breaks apart, he very likely won't be PM anymore. So he's catering to the extremists like Smotrich and ben-Gvir. They also know that they owe their own positions in the majority government to Bibi, so if he goes, they go too. The next elections aren't until 2026, so the country is stuck with this crowd unless something changes.
@LeopoldBloom That’s way too much Bibi. I shouldn’t even use his nickname, but spelling his last name is a pain.
We’ve had to endure false claims of genocide for almost a year now on one hand, and a demogogue Bibi on the other, and absurd college protests on the other! Not sure Israel can wait
