If you read the Old Testament or at least the first few books, it will tell you who God is. God is a jealous God. He hates idols. Idols are money, sexual practices and other things we worship rather than our creator. one Israelite was instantly consumed by fire for lighting incense out of order. God used to dwell among his people and even then they didn't believe and rebelled against him. Israel was his chosen people everyone else were considered unimportant because their SIN set them apart from God. Even Israel rebelled time after time. He gave them chance after chance. They rebelled he punished them. They repented after they were suffering, he had compassion and forgave them and took them back. Jesus preformed miracle after miracle right in front of their eyes and they still didn't believe him then they killed him. Only his followers believed him. How is it going to be different today? How long should he show people proof. Shall he not punish those who rebelled against him yesterday and today. If you don't fear God you will never please him. He created everything you see. Who are we to tell him we don't need to be disciplined. You can just love us without discipline,or jealously. We are willing to believe all the happy wonderful stories in the bible but wait a minute no we don't want to believe the discipline and punishment parts noooooo. That's not love. Does a father not discipline and punish his children. Do his children not fear him. Without fear there is no discipline,so the father that does this doesn't love his children. Even a human father has his limits on how many times he can continue to be rebelled against by his son and keep taking him back, but even after that if he repents he'll take him back. He wants you to repent and he will take you back unconditionally. Rebellion will get you punishment. How many chances will you give someone that sins against you before you cut them off from yourself. That's not love, I supose homosexuality, hating your brother,how many other sins need mentioned how is God Suposed to love us while we do this but he does. We certainly aren't showing him love will doing these things. God is the same God now that he was then. He hasn't changed. His anger burns against us unless we repent. He still loves us but he will punish us because he is a just God. He has provided us the one and only way to salvation. He has provided us not only the bible but he has put it in our hearts so we are without excuse. People will tell Jesus on the day of judgement but I did all these things I was supposed to do for you and he will tell them I don't know you and they will be thrown into the lake of fire, because it was put in their heart by God and they are without excuse. God has rules we must follow put him first and love one another if we can do that everything else falls into place and the blood Jesus shed on the cross will cover our sins as long as we confess them and repent. God is jealous and he is just. He hasn't changed. You want proof. Look deep in your own heart. It's there.

@thisisnotanexit

If it happens it happens. Can't do anything about it because i can't force belief where there is none.

Yeah i've heard that too. A Pretty feeble comparison in my opinion.
In that scenario the addict knows that what they are doing is wrong and destructive. They can't as a rule help themselves really but you can still call it a decision to do the wrong thing.
And so they suffer the consequences of it.

But in the case of non-believers it's not a matter of believing that god is real and jesus is his son and going the other way. It's a lack of belief. A reasonable lack of belief at that since there's no proof that he exists. Or at least proof that is only proof if you already believe.
And while a human parent can only do so much to try and help their addict child, god could save us all by simply openly declaring his existence to us.
But apparently it's more important to him that we have faith in him than it is that we not burn forever.

So essentially for the crime of lacking faith god is willing to let his children be tortured excruciatingly for eternity. An infinite punishment for a finite crime. No hope for parole, no lesson to be learned. Punishment for punishment's sake.

I'm sorry but you'll have to explain to me how that describes love.

There is one God and their God isn't it. Christians obey Jesus and the New Testament today. The Old Testament isn't for Christians it was for Israel only. The story's were about Israelies, not Christians. Noah and his family were the only ones that were right with God. Noah's ark is right where the bible says it was. " proof". Christianity didn't start until Jesus was reserected. Nothing in the Old Testament was done by Christians. God gave David power to conquer his enemies they worshiped false gods. God destroyed them just as he destroyed everything and everyone on earth with the flood, and he will destroy the earth and everything and everyone on it again when Jesus comes again,with fire this time and those who aren't ready and don't love God will burn, and their false gods can't save them. The devil and his followers will deceive many. The devil will burn and he knows it and so will his followers. Will you be deceived also. Jesus on the day of judgement will show us all Gods word written on our hearts. There will be no excuse. His word is true and it has not changed, don't you think he has power to keep his word, the bible true. There's no room in heaven for sin. All sin will be destroyed. Humans will always sin but God has provided a way to heaven were there will be no sin only love. True Christians will worship God in heaven. Many call themselves Christians but they are not,and they will not see heaven. Repent be baptized and strive to be a God fearing Christian and be ready when the end comes, and you will receive your reward in heaven. Everyone else has received their reward in full.

It doesn't describe love. In my opinion Jesus was an enlightened man with a strong connection to the universe but his words were skewed, added to, used for the benefit of people who wanted power. I don't know if you're an atheist or what but I believe there is a life force that most people call God. I call it the universe because I don't think of it as a man with a personality type of thing like Christians do. and I don't think people are sent to hell.

What I would say about God declaring his existence is that if you go inside yourself via meditation you may have more luck than looking to other people to prove it to you. If you really want to know if there is a god, or a life force, or a divine energy, universal energy, or whatever people want to call it, genuinely trying to make a connection will do far more than attempting to take other people's word for it. There is no proof, you won't find it. And in my opinion it's not necessary. What's important is spreading love and being good to people.

God loves everyone equally, even if you don't believe in him. it is his will that no one perish. So you believe we have eternal souls. We F. Ourselves he doesn't have anything to do with it. He provided the way to eternal life by sending his son to die for us. If we deny ourselves and obey that's the hard part, and are baptized, then God adds us to Jesus's church. The church is the body of Christ and If we don't go to church we are not part of his body, and we have no part in his salvation. People die from cancer God didn't give them cancer pollution did. God can save you from cancer. What do you do to deserve being saved from cancer or starving. Believe in him, go to church, Believe in his son, what then. I got cancer , first thing I did was pray and then I told the elders at my church and they prayed for me and the whole church prayed for me for several months. I had surgery to remove a large mass did chemotherapy for six months and prayed the whole time and went to church the whole time. That was four years ago. I go every six months to get blood checked. Cancer dr. Says everything looks great. I am very lucky to be alive and I thank god everyday for that. The prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. If you believe and obey and go to church he will bless you and he will protect you and even save you from cancer. Yes I love God and Jesus. I will thank them again tonight for saving me. I will pray for both of you also. Forgive me for anything I said that may have offended you.

Ok, for some reason I want to call you Andy, whatever, tenants occupie a dwelling, the tenet meaning opinion, principal, doctrine, one held as true by members, of my faith are as follows, my opinion is the bible is the word of God. The bible is the doctrine, and it is held as true by all the members of the church. I assume that was you're question, you weren't very specific. Would you like more detail, or you can be more specific.

I understand that. It just doesn't seem like love to me.
To me love means that you place the needs and well-being of the other person above your own. Even if they don't do what you want or care for you the way you care for them.
So if god is content to let his children burn because they disbelieve/lack belief/believe in something else then i'm sorry, but that's brutally conditional love and conditional love is not love at all.

Sure i forgive you.
And as a helpful tip: when you're discussing/debating something, confine your responses to the subject and don't waste time on potential motivations and grammar. More time showing your point, less time trying to show superiority.Then you won't have to ask for forgiveness.

Greg... It doesn't really matter if the Old Testament was before Christians because it is the same God. Is it not?

People who question religion want proof that it's real, and they aren't going to get it. Some enjoy the debate/argument and proving others wrong. For this reason it's pointless for people like the two of you to debate about it. Monster will only settle for proof and you can't give it to him. All you can do is repeat the things you've been told in church and learned by reading the bible. All things he's probably heard before.

Ehhh the starvation explanation you gave isn't good enough for me. of course he isn't MAKING them starve. But it's happening.

People have differing opinions on whether or not you have to go to church, but you are supposed to congregate with fellow Christians and Jesus said two or more people together he is with them. You're supposed to support and lift each other up, so yes I'd say you're supposed to go to church (2+ people), but if someone is locked in solitary confinement until he dies I really don't think he would go to hell just because he didn't go to "church". I don't think that's a deal breaker.

Dang auto correct gets you sometimes. Oh that question well your question doesn't make sense. He doesn't is the answer. God isn't meant to do anything. Do you not have food, clothing, roof over your head, and more. He takes care of everyone's wellbeing, believers and non believers, whether you love him or not.

That's no question about Christianity, that's fear of Christianity. Why else are you so worried about it. What's the matter afraid it's true. I not judging you, are you judging Christians. Why tear them down. I pray that you will come to repentance. If you have a question about Christianity I'll try and answer it in a respectful conversation with love in my heart not hate.

Noah's ark is proof. Gods word written on his heart is proof. He believes he has an eternal soul. He has love in his heart. Oh they will get their proof alright. I will pray he comes to repentance.

First of all, to Greg, not everyone has food or shelter. People starve to death daily.

To monster, the idea is that if you don't accept Jesus as your savior you don't get into heaven. You can believe in him, the bible says even Satan believes that Jesus is the son of God. You have to repent and turn to him and accept him as your lord and savior and then do yoir best to live according to his word. That's the only way to get into heaven according to the bible. So, unless you love him, you're going to hell.

@gregloa

This is a direct question regarding the tenants of your faith.

I wish you hadn't whipped out that trite old " why you care? u scared god is real?" line. I'm sure it's beneath you.

Now, if you find yourself incapable or unwilling to answer the question then simply say so.

Noah's ark is not the only flood story of its kind. I.e. Gilgamesh and the guy with the long "U" name that I will never remember how to spell.

@thisisnotanexit

Sure, i know all that.
So is that a "No, god doesn't love you if you don't believe in him" ?

@gregloa

So we're going into the old testament now? Neat. Gotta say i don't see how a loving god orders the slaughter of every man, woman and child.
Like i said, that's very conditional love and therefore not love at all.

As you point out, when they burned the wrong incense he killed them, their families and their tribe.
Please explain to me how those are the actions of someone who loves those people.
Go on. I dare you.

That is a huge part of why I left the church. I just can't accept that as truth.

It's more like... If you love him, then he cares about your well being.

@thisisnotanexit

So he doesn't love you unless you believe in him?

@RedHood

Sure man. I guess you can start

@thisisnotanexit

most insightful

@gregloa

Conditions. Exactly. My way or death.
Thank you for proving my point. His love is conditional and therefore not love at all.
And the fact that islam has violence in its doctrine does not in any way lessen the violence present in the bible.

Peace.

In a country where Christians are free to feed the hungry they don't starve, and they have shelter. If there is people starving, God certainly isn't making them starve. The evil dictators that rule the country they live in are eating well. So not an exit do you have to go to church to go to heaven

Your in the wrong group. You want the atheist group. If you don't believe, why are you so worried about it.

Greg, we will have to agree to disagree. I already know everything you could possibly say because I've been on your side of this conversation many times and since changing my views talked to a lot of Christians about this.

We watch the news today and see extremists killing in the name of their God and think it's disgusting and evil. Yet the Old Testament is filled with it. Slicing pregnant womens bellies open and slaughtering their unborn babies because they don't worship the God from the bible. If Christians took the Old Testament as seriously as those extremists take the Koran they would be able to justify murdering unbelievers in their own minds. Not to mention in the last 2000 years the number of people who have been forced to convert to Christianity or die. I will never believe God would do that.

@gregloa

Yeah, silly me for coming to christians with a question about CHRISTIANITY...

lol come on dude.

@gregloa

lol and people call islam a violent religion.

Anyway, you've just started posting rhetoric now so i guess that's the end of the thoughtful discussion.
Catch ya next time

@gregloa

lol wow patronizing much? I mean i could have explained to you the difference between "your" and "you're" when you fucked that up but i knew what you meant.

Moving on.

You've already seen my question. Why does a god who is meant to love us so much put more priority on how we love him than our well-being?

@gregloa

No need to make excuses.

Blowing right by the notion that everybody (christian or otherwise) has enough food, water shelter and health, i was of course referring to our eternal souls.

Why is it more important how we love him or that we believe in him than it is that he makes sure we're not fucked for eternity?

Monster, he loves you but won't let you into heaven. Sorry dude, you're going to burn. There will be fire, screaming, torture, it's going to be absolutely fucking awful. For all eternity. Because you aren't baptized in Christ and don't attend church.

I've heard it compared to parents who's child becomes an addict. As much as you want to help them by giving them a place to live and food and money to survive, eventually you just have to let them go... Kick them out and let them be homeless and destroy themselves. They still love their child of course, but enabling isn't going to help them out of their addiction. They have to hit rock bottom and make the choice for themselves. It's their life and they can do whatever they want with it.

Greg, I attended church for years, prayed unceasingly (while doing dishes, while working, while cleaning, while playing with my kids, etc) and spent every free chance I got studying the bible. My bible has underlined words and verses and notes along the sides. I planted seeds in people. I went to conventions and bible study and classes at church. I was fairly deep into it. My views have obviously changed, but I do believe that Christians are good people and have good intentions. I mean when I believed non-believers were going to hell I was right there trying to convert people because I cared about their souls just like most other Christians do. I understand they do it because they care and are trying to help.

I'm really happy for you that your cancer is gone. The power of prayer is real and it's a blessing that you have the support and love that you get from your church. I have no doubt that Jesus is real and loves you just as much as he loves everyone else. When I think God and Jesus I just think love. It's my belief that we don't need to give ourselves to Jesus, we need to give ourselves to love. Jesus was sent here to show us how.

The reason Christians have a hard time convincing a lot of people to give themselves to Jesus is because the idea that God would create us, then send us to hell for not believing a story that's been passed down through the years but never really proven, feels unjust. And it doesn't help that there are other religions who make the same claims. Christians really have no answer for this besides being able to prove that certain people from the bible actually did live during those times and things like that but that doesn't really prove that the words written in the bible are all truth. You're just supposed to believe.

Of course there are conditions how can there not be conditions. You have conditions for your children. Can a wife sleep with other men. There has to be conditions for anything to last. Countries that practice Islam behead you for little of nothing. Drive drunk over there and see what they do to you. If your daughter is accused of fornication you must kill her. Same thing goes for your wife. Kill all Christians no matter what. They slaughter people everyday right now for nothing. Just because they are Christians. Talk about you better convert or die. Alright Andy next time. Lol