How does substitutionary atonement help anything? If we are sinners who deserve death and can never deserve heaven

[b]...how does having someone else pay our fine make it ok for us to go to heaven?
We're still sinners.[/b]

If i break your window and someone else pays for the window to be fixed...i'm still a window breaker. How does the fact that someone else payed for the window make me trustworthy to have around windows?

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BibleData · M

The object of atonement is apparent in the English etymology. "Early 16th century (denoting unity or reconciliation, especially between God and man): from at one + -ment, influenced by medieval Latin adunamentum ‘unity’, and earlier onement from an obsolete verb one ‘to unite’." (Oxford Dictionary)

The object isn't punishment it's reparation and reconciliation. It (the word atonement) is translated from the Hebrew word Ka‧phar′ which means "to cover," or "wipe off." So the objective is to cover damages and repair relations, not to punish or retaliate. If the fixing of your window is paid for atonement has been made. If someone else paid for the wrongdoer that is of no harm to you.

So, basically if someone breaks your window but can't afford to pay to have it fixed someone else can pay for it.

Adam sinned. His punishment was death. Adam had been created to live forever in paradise earth. Not go to heaven. Since all of Adam's offspring (all of mankind) inherited sin none of them could pay reparation and cover the damages thus repairing relations between mankind and their creator.

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Pikachu

@BibleData

[quote]We sin until we die until all sin is removed.[/quote]

So if death ends sin (which is want Jesus did) then why do we need the substitutional death of Jesus?
Either sin ends at death or it does not.
And how does this idea incorporate the people who are still living when Jesus returns in his Kingdom?

BibleData · M

@Pikachu Sin means to miss the target. Adam sinned. Had Adam not sinned no one would ever have died. So what was the target?

Pikachu

@BibleData

I feel like you didn't really answer either of my questions there...

BibleData · M

@Pikachu To answer your question without you understanding what the target is is just semantics. It doesn't mean anything to you. Like ancestry doesn't mean to me the same thing it apparently means to you.

[quote]So if death ends sin (which is want Jesus did) then why do we need the substitutional death of Jesus?[/quote]

We needed that to cover the sin of Adam.

[quote]Either sin ends at death or it does not.[/quote]

It does. For the one dying. What about the target?

[quote]And how does this idea incorporate the people who are still living when Jesus returns in his Kingdom?[/quote]

Depends on the person. Various outcomes. Again, the target is what you need to understand to move on.

So, the target is mankind being like God and the angels. What Adam could have become. What, among other things, Jesus demonstrated was possible.

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Pikachu

@BibleData

Thanks for the detailed account. I hadn't heard the idea before that Jesus was Michael which is neat.

So we need substitutional atonement because our own sinful blood is not enough to cover the debt of Adam who was also a sinner just like us?

BibleData · M

@Pikachu Yes, the difference being that Adam hadn't started out that way.

Pikachu

@BibleData

So our blood is not good enough because another sinful human being was created with a perfect body? Obviously not a perfect mind or his choice would not have been to sin.

walabby · 61-69, M

You're right. The whole sin thing is BS. It's just an excuse for unscrupulous people to gain money and power.

Pikachu

@walabby

It is very much leveraged by unscrupulous people for that purpose, yes.

Spoiledbrat · F

We can ask for forgiveness and I don't think we have all the answers. We just try to do the best we can.

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Spoiledbrat · F

@Pikachu Of course we fall short. We are human but we can ask for forgiveness because Jesus died on the cross.

Pikachu

@Spoiledbrat

But that's my point. What difference does Jesus dying make?
If we can ask for forgiveness when we truly are trying to be better then what purpose does this substitutional atonement serve?

Spoiledbrat · F

@Pikachu Tbh I don't question it. I feel like we either have faith or we don't.

LordShadowfire · M

It appealed to the rich in the Middle Ages, because the concept of a whipping boy was popular.

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