How does substitutionary atonement help anything? If we are sinners who deserve death and can never deserve heaven

[b]...how does having someone else pay our fine make it ok for us to go to heaven?
We're still sinners.[/b]

If i break your window and someone else pays for the window to be fixed...i'm still a window breaker. How does the fact that someone else payed for the window make me trustworthy to have around windows?

This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »

BibleData · M

The object of atonement is apparent in the English etymology. "Early 16th century (denoting unity or reconciliation, especially between God and man): from at one + -ment, influenced by medieval Latin adunamentum ‘unity’, and earlier onement from an obsolete verb one ‘to unite’." (Oxford Dictionary)

The object isn't punishment it's reparation and reconciliation. It (the word atonement) is translated from the Hebrew word Ka‧phar′ which means "to cover," or "wipe off." So the objective is to cover damages and repair relations, not to punish or retaliate. If the fixing of your window is paid for atonement has been made. If someone else paid for the wrongdoer that is of no harm to you.

So, basically if someone breaks your window but can't afford to pay to have it fixed someone else can pay for it.

Adam sinned. His punishment was death. Adam had been created to live forever in paradise earth. Not go to heaven. Since all of Adam's offspring (all of mankind) inherited sin none of them could pay reparation and cover the damages thus repairing relations between mankind and their creator.

Pikachu

@BibleData

[quote]So, basically if someone breaks your window but can't afford to pay to have it fixed someone else can pay for it.
[/quote]

Except they go on breaking windows (sinning) and they're not going to stop even if they wanted to.
Someone else continuing to cover my window breaking debt doesn't change the fact that i'm not the kind of person who should be around windows.
Jesus's substitutional payment for my sins doesn't make me not a sinner ad unworthy to be in heaven.
Me, you and everyone else will keep "sinning" right up until we die...and then suddenly we're the right kind of person to be in heaven because Jesus payed up front for our crimes?

Doesn't make sense to me.

BibleData · M

@Pikachu [quote]Except they go on breaking windows (sinning) and they're not going to stop even if they wanted to.[/quote]

Correct. The reparation of window breaking would be a temporary solution. Like the ancient Jews, the Law of Moses and sacrifices.

[quote]Someone else continuing to cover my window breaking debt doesn't change the fact that i'm not the kind of person who should be around windows.[/quote]

So, we learned that from the temporary solution comparable to sacrifices above. That's what Israel was created for. You need a more permanent solution. Unbreakable windows. Trouble is window breaking isn't the only problem. There are many others. You live in a crime infested area. You need to get away from that. Only it will just follow you, or a even be a more insidious elite type of criminal activity.

You would have to get rid of the criminals.

[quote]Jesus's substitutional payment for my sins doesn't make me not a sinner ad unworthy to be in heaven.[/quote]

There's isn't anything you can do to make you worthy of resurrection. You need to get rid of the idea that "we" go to heaven or hell. That's cartoonish, unscriptural pagan religious nonsense.

[quote]Me, you and everyone else will keep "sinning" right up until we die...and then suddenly we're the right kind of person to be in heaven because Jesus payed up front for our crimes?

Doesn't make sense to me.[/quote]

Resurrection. We were meant to live forever. Sin equals death. Take away sin you take away death. We are acquitted of sin upon death. Resurrection.

Pikachu

@BibleData

I mean, call it what you want: heaven, resurrection on earth, paradise. The point is that we're apparently not worthy of it and the sin is not being taken away, just payed for by someone else. We're still criminals and someone paying for our crimes doesn't change that...

BibleData · M

@Pikachu You're going to argue that point? It's important that you acknowledge resurrection because we weren't made in heaven we were made on earth. There isn't any point for us to go to heaven, except for 144,000 for a specific purpose.

Jesus paid the fine, so to speak, that don't mean the crime ends or punishment is complete. We sin until we die until all sin is removed.

You don't understand the simple meaning of the Bible. I guess because you see it as a collection of mythological allegories?

Pikachu

@BibleData

[quote]We sin until we die until all sin is removed.[/quote]

So if death ends sin (which is want Jesus did) then why do we need the substitutional death of Jesus?
Either sin ends at death or it does not.
And how does this idea incorporate the people who are still living when Jesus returns in his Kingdom?

BibleData · M

@Pikachu Sin means to miss the target. Adam sinned. Had Adam not sinned no one would ever have died. So what was the target?

Pikachu

@BibleData

I feel like you didn't really answer either of my questions there...