Are Buddhists really atheists?

There’s an intrinsic arrogance to Christianity, Islam and Judaism. It’s a destructive force.

@SW-User



What do you say, is Buddhism in the Far East among native Buddhist lay folks a religion or what, a philosophy?


Westerners who take to Buddhism consider it a philosophy, but do they know what is the difference between philosophy and religion.

You are a Westerner and a fan of Buddhism, what is it to you, a philosophy or a religion?








TelegramSam · 70-79New
@yrger hello again.

In fact I answered your question, as put, right at the start of my first response i.e. "The Dharma knows no creator God".

But as I have sought to say, that is as far as it goes as a direct answer. After that, in terms of actual Reality, any dividing line between "theism" and "atheism" becomes difficult to pin down in terms of actual experience

At risk of being termed "erudite" here is another cut and paste job from D T Suzuki, known in the west mainly for his writings on zen, but was in fact also very much associated with Shin Buddhism (i.e. Pure Land Buddhism), the so called Buddhism of faith. He is writing of Who, What or It many in the east, particularly Japan, look to for hope, comfort and support:-

....we believe in Amida Buddha as our Oya-sama, or Oya-san, as it is sometimes called. It is the term used to express love and compassion. Oya means parent, but not either parent, rather both mother and father; not separate personalities, but both fatherly and motherly qualities united in one personality. The honorific san is the familiar form of sama. The latter, Oya-sama,is the standard form. In Christianity, God is addressed as the Father - "Our father who art in Heaven" - but Oya-sama is not in Heaven, nor is Oya-sama Father. It is incorrect to say "he" or "she," for no gender distinction is found. I don't like to say "it," so I don't know what to say. Oya-sama is a unique word, deeply endearing and at the same time rich with religious significance and warmth.

As you say about many native Buddhists, the situation is diverse. As it is with Christians in the West when we begin to deconstruct.

In Pure Land Buddhism, in reality, there are those who see Amida as "him up there" who will come to them at death to escort them to the Pure Land. Others see Amida as a personification of Reality-as-is and the Pure Land is here, now, when we see with new eyes. And of course, all points in between. In the end all such ways of seeing and being are purely conceptual. We are all unique, unrepeatable human beings, precious beyond price. What matters, as I see it, is to accept and love all beyond all divisions and judgements, as much as we are able.

As Thomas Merton has said:- The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them.

Thank you.

@SW-User


You say:
I do meditate but this is for me purely therapeutic.


From me (on the meaning of therapeutic):

adjective: therapeutic

relating to the healing of disease.
"diagnostic and therapeutic facilities"


noun: therapeutics

1. the branch of medicine concerned with the treatment of disease and the action of remedial agents.
2. a treatment, therapy, or drug.
"current therapeutics for asthma"

(Oxford Languages)


Well, that's enlightening for me, that you meditate for healing of your health.


So, I tend to think that meditation is some kind of prayer, some kind of appeal to some higher power for your need in the present context, health restoration - wherefore your Buddhism is a religion.







yrger · 80-89, M
@TelegramSam


So, you don't know what is a religion and what is a philosophy, wherefore you don't know what is Buddhism to you.

And I was hoping to learn from you, in re how to enhance my life with Buddhism.

Anyway, tell me what Buddhistic acts or routines do you perform in your everyday life, aside from reading and thinking and thinking and thinking in re Buddhism?


----------------------


TelegramSam · 70-79New
@yrger Hello again, no, I have been unclear. I do know the difference but I am simply saying that the Buddhadharma does not fall into either of the two categories.

And as I implied previously, I do not divide my life into categories either - spiritual, secular, "buddhist" acts, other acts. I do meditate but this is for me purely therapeutic. In the Pure Land way that I loosely follow, the dojo (training ground) is life itself, and any act designed to "gain" enlightenment is seen as self-power (Japanese jiriki) and is seen as unbeneficial. The way is more one of thankfullness for all that has been given.

In fact, giving a bit of background - as you seem interested - the Pure Land way is very much related to the interplay of self-power/jiriki and Other Power (Japanese Tariki)

As the Pure Land myokonin (loosely = saint) Saichi has said:-

O Saichi! Will you tell us of Other Power?
Yes, but there is neither self-power nor Other Power.
What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.

Which really brings me back to my "erudite" ramblings in my very first response to you. Where is the dividing line between theism and non-theism? The Dharma has a very non-dual background.

Anyway, it's time for bed. It has been a long day.

All the best.

@SW-User

I am sorry, but what is your most erudite text have to do with the topic, "Are Buddhists really atheists?"



TelegramSam · 70-79New
Christianity is dualistic. Theistic. Buddhism is born from non-dualism. The Dharma knows no creator.

Yet when reading one or two of the great Christian mystics I wonder exactly where there is a true "dividing line". In the "negative way" of Christianity God is the great "incomprehensible"....beyond thought. Meister Eckhart in his Sermon on "True Poverty" speaks this way of God:-

Nothing that knowledge can grasp, or desire can want, is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness; and there God shines.

St John of the Cross, speaking of the "final arrival" (to give it a name) writes:-

On that glad night in secret,
for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

This guided me more surely
than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
— him I knew so well —
there in a place where no one appeared.

Where no one appeared?

Getting back to Eckhart and the same Sermon (German Sermon 22) there is:-

Now listen carefully! I have often said, as great masters have said, that we should be so free of all things and all works, both inner and outer, that we become the place where God can act. But now we put it differently. If it is the case that someone is free of all creatures, of God and of themselves, if God finds a place to act in them, then we say: as long as this exists in someone, they have not yet reached the ultimate poverty. For God does not intend there to be a place in someone where he can act, but if there is to be true poverty of spirit, someone must be so free of God and all his works that if God wishes to act in the soul he must himself be the place in which he can act, and this he is certainly willing to be. For if God finds us this poor, then God performs his own active work and we passively receive God in ourselves and God becomes the place of his work in us since God works within himself. In this poverty, we attain again the eternal being which we once enjoyed, which is ours now and shall be for ever.

So, in experience, where is the dividing line between dualism and non-dualism? Between - using other words - "emptiness" and "theism"?

Christianity is dualistic. Theistic. Buddhism is born from non-dualism. The Dharma knows no creator.

Yet when reading one or two of the great Christian mystics I wonder exactly where there is a true "dividing line". In the "negative way" of Christianity God is the great "incomprehensible"....beyond thought. Meister Eckhart in his Sermon on "True Poverty" speaks this way of God:-

Nothing that knowledge can grasp, or desire can want, is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness; and there God shines.

St John of the Cross, speaking of the "final arrival" (to give it a name) writes:-

On that glad night in secret,
for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

This guided me more surely
than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
— him I knew so well —
there in a place where no one appeared.

Where no one appeared?

Getting back to Eckhart and the same Sermon (German Sermon 22) there is:-

Now listen carefully! I have often said, as great masters have said, that we should be so free of all things and all works, both inner and outer, that we become the place where God can act. But now we put it differently. If it is the case that someone is free of all creatures, of God and of themselves, if God finds a place to act in them, then we say: as long as this exists in someone, they have not yet reached the ultimate poverty. For God does not intend there to be a place in someone where he can act, but if there is to be true poverty of spirit, someone must be so free of God and all his works that if God wishes to act in the soul he must himself be the place in which he can act, and this he is certainly willing to be. For if God finds us this poor, then God performs his own active work and we passively receive God in ourselves and God becomes the place of his work in us since God works within himself. In this poverty, we attain again the eternal being which we once enjoyed, which is ours now and shall be for ever.

So, in experience, where is the dividing line between dualism and non-dualism? Between - using other words - "emptiness" and "theism"?

Protestants who protest against Catholic theory / ideology, are atheists of Catholic. So any atheist will only be atheists first of the religion they are born in and not disbelievers in god totally. They are more against the superstitious rituals , practices and impositions on humans, which they stay away from. So to say Buddhists are atheists is wrong, for in Buddhism its the principles of life that they follow without much rituals. And Buddha too is worshipped as God and they are also Hindu gods such as Lakshmi, Brahma in Buddhist temples. So no Buddhist denies god.

@SW-User


I ask you:
You are a Westerner and a fan of Buddhism, what is it to you, a philosophy or a religion?

You tell me:
It is the Buddhadharma, the way of the Buddha. A host of "ways" For me it is simply my life, my way.


Now, I ask you again, what is it to you, a philosophy or a religion. Please choose one or the other, otherwise I would not get to know what exactly is Buddhism to you.


You see, we have got to keep an idea of what is a religion and what is a philosophy.

From my part, a religion with mankind means man prays to a god or gods for his needs, whereas a philosophy means man thinks and thinks and thinks about everything.


What do you say, tell me what to you is a religion and what is a philosophy, and what is Buddhism to you, one or the other.

From my part, Buddhism is a religion, and it is not my religion but I do have my own kind of a religion.






yrger · 80-89, M
@TelegramSam

What do you say, is Buddhism in the Far East among native Buddhist lay folks a religion or what, a philosophy?


Westerners who take to Buddhism consider it a philosophy, but do they know what is the difference between philosophy and religion.

You are a Westerner and a fan of Buddhism, what is it to you, a philosophy or a religion?


-------------------------


TelegramSam · 70-79New
@yrger Its been a busy morning, and I'm getting confused (which doesn't take much these days....😀) but I was sure I had answered you but cannot seem to find my reply. But I will answer again.

Why does Buddhism have to comply with basically "western" catagories of thought? "Buddhism" is itself a western term, the west that loves its "isms" and ologies", the dissection of everything. Precise definitions. Such has its place yet can preclude understanding Reality as it is.

It is the Buddhadharma, the way of the Buddha. A host of "ways".

For me it is simply my life, my way.

This only applies to certain types of Buddhism. Most buddhists are not truly atheistic. But the practice of buddhism means that there is no need to believe in gods. Here's academic analysis.
"However, it is a question whether Buddhism is truly atheistic. In Buddhist legends, the gods of India play a great role. Brahma and Indra encourage the Buddha to share the truth of his enlightenment with all people. In later mythic depictions in Mahayana Sacred texts, the audiences attending the Buddha’s sermons include hordes of deities of every type who listen and affirm the Buddha’s message. In popular religion in every Asian country, the gods support Buddhism and provide for the worldly needs of the people for health, wealth and spiritual protection. The native Japanese gods were seen as manifestations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to protect Japan even before Buddhism officially arrived. In Japan virtually all temples had a shrine, dedicated to a tutelary native god or Indian deity, to protect the sacred area.
"Buddhist teachings taught that the gods, though powerful to aid beings in their worldly life, were irrelevant for gaining enlightenment and spiritual development. No amount of devotion or praying to a god will bring Buddhist enlightenment. In fact, according to Buddhism, the gods themselves need to be enlightened."
https://bschawaii.org/shindharmanet/atheism/

@Roundandroundwego

You say, "To me Buddhism is a large group of philosophy and religion."

Tell me:
1. What is the difference between religion and philosophy?
2. Is Buddhism in the Far East a religion or a philosophy?
3. What is it to you personally as you are attached to Buddhism: religion or philosophy?
4. If you say either religion or philosiphy, tell me why you choose one or the other?


For myself, I am not a Buddhist at all, but what I might call myself a researcher of religion and philosophy. And as far as I have investigated Buddhism in the Far East where Buddhism is very wide-spread and adhered to by natives there, it is a religion.

@SW-User



You ask, "where is the dividing line between theists and atheists?"

My answer:
I am theist I know God exists.
They atheists deny God exists.









TelegramSam · 70-79New
@yrger Hi, can you not see? Actual experience of Reality trumps any mere conceptual idea of whether or not some "being" exists.

As far as "existence", it takes little thought to recognise that "God" cannot exist in the same sense that you or I - or anything else - exists. The source can only be the ground of being" in which we live and move and have our being.

So I ask again, where is the dividing line? Between theists and atheists that is. That is my question to you.

And really your "erudite" is well wide of the mark. Copy and paste.

😀

PS. And have you not found out by now that:- ask a 100 Buddhists a question, get 100 answers!

@Pfuzylogic


Have you ever gone to the Far East and lived in a Buddhist monastic community for years and years?

You know about Buddhism from the biased information of Western atheists who never ever been to the Far East and lived for years with the monks in a truly ethnic Buddhist monastic ommunity.

The monks there are not atheists the way Western atheists are - atheists in the West are targetting the Christian God, but the Buddhist monks in the Far East pray to god and even gods for all kinds of favors in their daily life, and so also the lay Buddhist folks, they even raised the Gautama up as one of their mayny gods.

So, Buddshim the original Buddhism is never against the existence of god and even gods

@Entwistle

Native Buddhist monks and lay folks in the Far East pray to Buddha as having been raised to the status of a god, one among many gods.

So, they are theistic, they don't pray to mental states, but to gods of all sorts for all kinds of needs.



You Entwistle are a self-convinced (wrongly) and westernized Buddhist, let you live in the Far East, there in the homelands where Buddhism is the common ethnic religion, and the folks there will recognize you to be out of your mind, with your ideas about non-existence of your body: whereas you do eat and defecate, and also see a local dentist when a decaying tooth is giving you extreme pain and swellig of your cheeks.

I've seen your comments many times. You appear to be obsessesed with atheists and atheism. Personally speaking, I could give a rat's ass if there are atheists in others parts of the world. What concerns me is when theists jam their beliefs down my throat.

@SW-User


So, you don't know what is a religion and what is a philosophy, wherefore you don't know what is Buddhism to you.

And I was hoping to learn from you, in re how to enhance my life with Buddhism.

Anyway, tell me what Buddhistic acts or routines do you perform in your everyday life, aside from reading and thinking and thinking and thinking in re Buddhism?






TelegramSam · 70-79New
@yrger Sorry mate, I will not be dictated to by you. You wish me to categorise according to your own understanding and western conditioning. You can call it what you like, your privilege.

And please, I am not a "fan". The last thing "Buddhism" is is a soccer team.

@Entwistle

I Yrger tell you, plenty, one of them is the Gautama himself, elevated by them to the status of a deity.


"Buddhism includes a wide array of divine beings that are venerated in various ritual and popular contexts. Initially they included mainly Indian figures such as devas, asuras and yakshas, but later came to include other Asian spirits and local gods (like the Burmese nats and the Japanese kami). They range from enlightened Buddhas to regional spirits adopted by Buddhists or practiced on the margins of the religion." - Wikipedia







Entwistle · 51-55, M
@revenant What gods do Buddhists worship?

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---------------------


Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophy?

After prolonged investigation, here is my finding:

Philosophy consists essentiallly in man thinking and thinking and thinking on everything.

Religion consists essentially in man praying and praying and praying to superior beings for all sorts of needs.

What then is Buddfhism?

In the Far East it is a religion.

@Entwistle

You say: "Everything is dependently originated. All things come into and exit existence every moment."


But you depend upon your heart to beat else yu will die, so also with your brain, else you will also die.

So they heart and brain exist continuously until you die owing to say an accodemt or you commit suicide - no matter that you believe you don't exist.

Therefore: there is something or someone in charge of from man to the universe and everything that does exist objectively, no matter you believe you don;t exist objectively.

@SW-User


You ask, "where is the dividing line between theists and atheists?"

My answer:
I am theist I know God exists.
They atheists deny God exists.


I am still waiting for you to react to my answer.



Anyway, let's go to the topic at hand, "Are Buddhists really atheists?"

What do you say?


From my part, insofar as I know about the the native Buddhists in the Far East, they are not atheists in the sense of atheists in the West, but to the onctrary, they are polytheists, they pray to many gods, and they raised Gautama to the status of a god, they pray to him for alll kinds of needs.

@Entwistle

I really cannot get anything sensible with you, for you insist that you and I we don't exist, how then that we are having this dialogue, and it is published in this genuinely existing website of Similarworlds.com?

Do you Entwistle have a source of financial income, i.e. you are working in order to earn money, to procure foods and shelter and medical service and drugs when you get sick?

Or you are the child of a very wealthy marriage, who keep you alive and kicking - while you indulge in the fanatically fantasy of your non-existence.

@Entwistle

Where did you learn your Buddhism, from Buddhist monks in the Far East, or from a Buddhism fan in the West who never lived in the Far East?

@Entwistle

Where is the 'i'?

It's up to you, Entwistle, for according to you being a Buddhist, your kind of Buddhism requires you to consider every human to be non-existing, nonetheless - no matter we are still having a viable dialogue.

Now, suppose you or your 'i' is the victim in an accident while crossing a busy street, I still have to bring your non-existent 'i' to the hospital out of it is the right thing to do to a fellow human, even though he claims to be a non-existent 'i'.

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---------------------


I Yrger am paging Buddhists, please come over and let us discuss whether you Buddhists really deny God exists.

My purpose (Yrger's) is to ask Buddhists whether they really deny that God exists.

From my part, I know from my reason and intelligence that God exists.

(If you are not Buddhists, please don't participate here.)

Hi everyone, I am Yrger the theist, see if you care to discuss with me on my idea, read text below.


Are Buddhists really atheists?
Atheists in the West claim that Buddhists are atheists, so they (the atheists in the West) feel better that they are not the only atheists in the world.

My purpose is to ask Buddhists whether they really deny that God exists.

From my part, I know from my reason and intelligence that God exists.

So, paging Buddhists, please come over and let us discuss whether you Buddhists really deny God exists.

@Entwistle

You say, "We exist, but not in the way we think..we exist..ie interdependently."

I concur.

Now, let us continue on the line of interdependentl existence, can you agree with me that we are ultimately dependent on God but God does not depend on us?

If we don't exist, God continues to exist.

If there is no God, then there is nothing but nothingness, end of everything - no more Yrger and no more Entwistle and no more Buddhism nor Christiansm nor atheism nor apple pie . . .

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[@HollyW] [@TheoreticSkeptic] [@Thodsis] [@Mithraia] [@deadgerbil] [@Dshhh]
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Hi everyone, the list above is my invitation to you all to join in the discussion. If you are not happy with it, then you can opt to not receive any notification, by cancelling the notification feature.
---------------------


I Yrger am paging Buddhists, please come over and let us discuss whether you Buddhists really deny God exists.

My purpose (Yrger's) is to ask Buddhists whether they really deny that God exists.

From my part, I know from my reason and intelligence that God exists.

@Entwistle



You don't belong here at Similarworlds.com, you are at most only in your mental state, and I can't enter your brain, because it is also equipped with its own mental state, and on an ond and on . . .





Entwistle · 51-55, M
@yrger Gods in Buddhism represent various mental qualities,mental states.
Some folk mistake them as being outer phenomena,as real self existent beings.
Hindus make this mistake all the time.
Buddhism has no need for none existent gods.

Buddhists can be any religion. Buddhism is a way of being, not a religion. They may, or may not believe in God.

@Emosaur

My point is that Buddhists being humans with reason and intelligence know also about god or even gods.

This thread is not about the conflict between atheists and theists in the West.

It is about whether Buddhists in the East are really like atheists in the West?

My answer is no, on the contrary Buddhists in the East more in particular the Far East, they have god and even gods to whom they pray for all kinds of needs.

@Pfuzylogic

Go to the Far East to learn that Buddhists have plenty of gods, but not the God of the West which atheists in the West deny to exist, namely, the God of Christianism, Islamism, and Judaism.

When you get there and live there for years and years, you will get the picture that Buddhists are not theistic in the Western concept of theism, but polytheistic, i.e. plenty of gods for all sorts of needs.

@ArcticDave

In fairness to Christianity, Islam and Judaism, they did more good than evil, these religions built the amazing civilizations and cultures in all the lands they converted to God.

Imagine the horrors atheists will wreak on mankind should they take over the world, i.e. reduce all mankind into their slaves who are not as strong and unscrupulous as the superior race of atheists.

@Entwistle

You make a gratuitous declaration, you have no proof that there is no God, besides you don't exist, so I don't see you as I also don't exist.

You have made reality to be non-existence, you are into a most self-contradictory platform, the reality is that you and I exist, that is why we are here in Similarworlds.com.

HAHAHAHA !
@yrger/buttbrain
Looks like I called it in your last thread.
Last week you called me a Christian, this week you called me an Atheist, next you’ll be telling me, I’m a Buddhist.
Your excerpt matches what I’ve been saying since thread 1. That gods are man made. Now I’ve got Buddha agreeing with me !
Not such a wild idea after all. Still haven’t found any support for your god, have you ?

@FragileHeart

You are not quoting your source correctly.

Read this excerpt:

Do you read anything from Gautama against a fearsome God?

On the contrary he taught mankind to be calm and reasonable in facing the fearful forces of nature, (and implicitly trust the gods).

"No, we do not. There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says":
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".

https://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

They are people with a God shaped hole and trying to fill it.

@Roundandroundwego

Tell me, is Buddhism to you a religion or a philosophy.

And are you a Westerner who read about Buddhism from atheists in the West who want to co-opt Buddhism as also an atheistic philosophy, by claiming that the ancient teacher Gautama of the Far East was also godless like themselves (atheists in the modern West)?

@Entwistle

When if ever you were in the Far East, you did notice that Buddhist monks and also the Buddhist lay folks pray to their various gods, even to Gautama who is raised to the status of a god - so Buddhists in their homelands are not atheistic but in fact polytheistic.

@Entwistle



Don't take the Dalai Lama seriously, he does not exist, at most only his mental state.






Entwistle · 51-55, M
In Buddhism there is nobody to pray to.
The Dalai Lama recently stated 'Prayer is useless'.
If you were hungry would you rather someone gave you a meal or would you pray?

Since you're always so frightened of people exposing your lack of reasoned argument that you post every comment as the start of a new thread, why should I (or anyone) give you the courtesy of using the 'reply' button.

So from now every comment to you will start a new thread


What's a 'biblical atheist'?

Why are you focused on atheists from the west? do you consider them different from atheists from the east?
Let alone that Buddhism sources itself from Siddhartha Gautama not really a divine figure although he claimed “enlightenment”.

@Entwistle


Dalai Lama is a mental construct? Not to himself, he has to escape and stay in India for his most dear life, otherwise he would end up in a re-education center in Tibet.






Entwistle · 51-55, M
@yrger The Dalai Lama like all phenomena is a mental construct.

They are not atheists.

@revenant

You have to explain why you say that Buddhists are not atheists, even though I agree with you, that they are not atheists.

My reason is because they pray to gods.




revenant · F
They are not atheists.

No not in the strict sense, the buddah is more of a symbol for karma, the universe, and to symbolize internal wholeness through said teachings, which is why he appears fat and full.

@Entwistle

Are you not going to reply to me anymore, in which case I guess cat got your tongue - I win our 'debate' on "Do we exist objectively or not?"

Buddha was asked by an atheist 'Does god exist'? He replied 'Yes'.
He was later asked by a theist 'Does God exist'? He replied 'No'.
He was giving the correct answer both times.

In Buddhism there is nobody to pray to.
The Dalai Lama recently stated 'Prayer is useless'.
If you were hungry would you rather someone gave you a meal or would you pray?

@TrashCat

I am sorry calling you mad i.e. "you are talking nonsense."

I sincerely like to discuss with you, but please tell me which comment from me are you referring to? Give it to me verbatim, okay?

@Roundandroundwego

Are you a Buddhist, and westernized or native of the Far East where Buddhism is the ethnic religion?

Anyway, what to you is Buddhism all about?

@Abstraction

This text:


So, Buddhists are not atheists, they (Buddhists) pray to superior beings i.e. gods, who dispense worldly favors of health, wealth and spiritual protection.