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There is no ‘divine plan’

Imagine the millions of small fish in the seas that are devoured every day by larger fish. Oceans are vast killing zones. Churches proclaim that God created all living things as part of a divine plan. Why did he design a slaughterhouse?

Mark Twain wrote, in Letters from the Earth:

“The spider kills the fly, and eats it; the bird kills the spider, and eats it; the wildcat kills the goose; the — well, they all kill each other. It is murder all along the line. Here are countless multitudes of creatures, and they all kill, kill, kill, they are all murderers.”

What sort of divine plan is that?

Charles Templeton, a Canadian evangelist who lost his faith, wrote in Farewell to God:

“Every carnivorous creature must kill and devour another creature. It has no option. Why does God’s grand design require creatures with teeth designed to crush spines or rend flesh, claws fashioned to seize and tear, venom to paralyze, mouths to suck blood, coils to constrict and smother — even expandable jaws so that prey may be swallowed whole and alive? Nature is, in Tennyson’s vivid phrase, ‘red in tooth and claw,’ and life is a carnival of blood. How could a loving and omnipotent god create such horrors?”

Charles Darwin was horrified by an insect that displays extreme treachery. Professor Warren Allmon, director of the Paleontological Research Institution, has written in an essay about Darwin:

“Ichneumons are an extraordinarily diverse group of parasitic wasps (there are at least 25,000 described species, which may be only a quarter of their true diversity). Female ichneumons lay their eggs on or in a living host, usually an insect or spider. When the larvae hatch, they begin to feed on the host, frequently eating it in such a way as to allow it to remain alive for as long as possible, permitting the larvae to complete their development. The host is literally eaten alive. How could such a horrific phenomenon be the product of a benevolent god?”

Darwin himself wrote in an 1860 letter to American botanist Asa Gray:

“I cannot see as plainly as others do … evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent god would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.”

Nature simply exists, grabbing every opportunity to eat and survive. Even though we eat agricultural animals, humans are much kinder than the dog-eat-dog reality surrounding us.

There is no divine plan — and no divine creator.

Freeethoughnow.org

James A. Haught, syndicated by PeaceVoice, was the longtime editor at the Charleston Gazette and has been the editor emeritus since 2015. He has won two dozen national newswriting awards and is author of 12 books and 150 magazine essays. He also is a senior editor of Free Inquiry magazine and was writer-in-residence for the United Coalition of Reason.
Freeranger · M
His ways are not your ways......what mankind promotes as intelligence God sees as foolishness. You are given free will to believe whatever you will. You are left to your endeavor. One day, there will be a reckoning of mankind.
Either your belief or lack thereof, is like a gambler tossing the last of the money in his pocket against the dice. You win or.....you lose. "If," God is not real, then those who have followed his precepts in life have lost nothing, and have followed a good life. On the flip side of that coin lies a reality.....the side that states God exists the unbeliever is condemned, and the believer experiences marvelous things beyond his comprehension.
That side of the coin is very black and white, based on "free choice" extended to all of mankind. You either believe in Him or....you don't. If the side of the coin that comes up in your hand is Heads....your disbelief actually is your loss.....God being real (and I fully and personally believe that He is).
Hell then, is not a metaphor for something else but a very real entity where, unbelievers are sent once they stand before Him because good, bad, or indifferent, we will all stand before Him one day.
It is far easier to deny that God exists because to accept the premise that God is real, means that the whole enchilada of good and evil, heaven and hell are very real.....and certainly the why that knots of people find it easier to deny his existence. Hell doesn't sound very nice if you ask me......an eternity of suffering? No thank you.....but....that's just for believers right? Riiiight.
And so, ultimately, in the end, we lie in the beds we make for ourselves....and like the guy who flips the coin and chooses, what's played is layed the day we pass from this earth, and each man has his own date with time.
In all fairness, you see, you/we executed a choice. We all do. Therefore, as a believer, your eternity is secure, and a polar opposite to the alternative will mean an eternity of suffering.
You get to choose. I'd call that fair. Be prepared to live with your choice and please don't whine...either here or when you close your eyes in finality.
So, to me.....roll your dice. Believe and feel that sense of eternal security or......sew the wind and reap yer own whirlwind.
Freeranger · M
@Diotrephes The deeper question apparently is your abject fear of the reality of your end of life. That you have chosen Diotrophes as your shingle matters little. Your audience here I suspect, whom you attempt to dazzle with laptop knowledge is to be considered pretty small potatoes, at least by the standards of Diotrephes. You should leave here of course, take that show on the road and become a much bigger fish elsewhere some time in the future perhaps.
Here.....well, it becomes purely a game of constant one upsmanship doesn't it?

And yet, some people have that little unhappy hunger within themselves that never let them rest. Mores the pity.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@Freeranger So, why do you believe in that specific fairytale when it plainly says that it doesn't give a damn about you?
Freeranger · M
@Diotrephes Why do you care? Actually......it's a rhetorical question. You don't care, you're simply like the freestyle mountain climber looking for their next toehold.
I'll answer you with this. It's one you should recognize. You are welcome to your own opinion, just not your own facts...

We can continue this tennis match of course or, you might try to find a weaker vessel.
walabby · 70-79, M
People seem to have the notion that God should be "good". A reading of the Old Testament should dispel that notion.
God, at best, is neutral.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@walabby God is good. We are not good so we can't recognize good when we see it. We too often try to impose our morals onto God and of course that is a HUGE mistake.
Ceinwyn · 26-30, F
@walabby Yeah, he’s a regular dick
DeluxedEdition · 26-30, F
God gave man free will. God never designed a slaughterhouse. A man did
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
This made me hungry for a rare steak.
the plan exists as a series of causes and effects. only this plan has nothing to do with the normal human view of the world.

if the religious context of perception is closer to you, then replace god with the devil. you get a logical explanation of what you have described.

if you wish, you can retain the classical guiding role of god in this scheme. to do so, you can believe that the devil's imposition of this world exists only as a divine test for souls born into sin.

the logical equilibrium with your religious faith could go on and on. it is a futile exercise.
BibleData · M
These are surprisingly myopic postulations from some of our best thinkers because according to the Bible omnivorous diet wasn't the plan and seems not to be the eventuality. But even if that weren't the case the apparently temporary implementation of the deviation of that plan seems to be working.

There is a nurturing relationship with animal husbandry that can be taken to extremes. We grow plants to harvest them, we raise animals to harvest from them. Clothes, medicine, food.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi BlueSkyKing.

I must congratulate you for your learning, but suppose you expound your most focused point in just say 100 words, so that I and others can grasp what is your essential message.







There is no ‘divine plan’

Imagine the millions of small fish in the seas that are devoured every day by larger fish. Oceans are vast killing zones. Churches proclaim that God created all living things as part of a divine plan. Why did he design a slaughterhouse?

Mark Twain wrote, in Letters from the Earth:

“The spider kills the fly, and eats it; the bird kills the spider, and eats it; the wildcat kills the goose; the — well, they all kill each other. It is murder all along the line. Here are countless multitudes of creatures, and they all kill, kill, kill, they are all murderers.”

What sort of divine plan is that?

Charles Templeton, a Canadian evangelist who lost his faith, wrote in Farewell to God:

“Every carnivorous creature must kill and devour another creature. It has no option. Why does God’s grand design require creatures with teeth designed to crush spines or rend flesh, claws fashioned to seize and tear, venom to paralyze, mouths to suck blood, coils to constrict and smother — even expandable jaws so that prey may be swallowed whole and alive? Nature is, in Tennyson’s vivid phrase, ‘red in tooth and claw,’ and life is a carnival of blood. How could a loving and omnipotent god create such horrors?”

Charles Darwin was horrified by an insect that displays extreme treachery. Professor Warren Allmon, director of the Paleontological Research Institution, has written in an essay about Darwin:

“Ichneumons are an extraordinarily diverse group of parasitic wasps (there are at least 25,000 described species, which may be only a quarter of their true diversity). Female ichneumons lay their eggs on or in a living host, usually an insect or spider. When the larvae hatch, they begin to feed on the host, frequently eating it in such a way as to allow it to remain alive for as long as possible, permitting the larvae to complete their development. The host is literally eaten alive. How could such a horrific phenomenon be the product of a benevolent god?”

Darwin himself wrote in an 1860 letter to American botanist Asa Gray:

“I cannot see as plainly as others do … evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent god would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.”

Nature simply exists, grabbing every opportunity to eat and survive. Even though we eat agricultural animals, humans are much kinder than the dog-eat-dog reality surrounding us.

There is no divine plan — and no divine creator.

Freeethoughnow.org

James A. Haught, syndicated by PeaceVoice, was the longtime editor at the Charleston Gazette and has been the editor emeritus since 2015. He has won two dozen national newswriting awards and is author of 12 books and 150 magazine essays. He also is a senior editor of Free Inquiry magazine and was writer-in-residence for the United Coalition of Reason.
BlueSkyKing M


Heavenlywarrior · 36-40, M
Why does a rainbow have the same color layout everytime in order?
Heavenlywarrior · 36-40, M
@RosaMarie so there is Order in Nature.
@Heavenlywarrior If you want to know what the visible spectrum is all about read chapter 3 of "Unweaving the Rainbow" by Richard Dawkins (1998). An excerpt below.

"The spectrum depends upon light of different colours being slowed by different amounts: the refractive index of a given substance, say glass or water, is greater for blue light than for red. You could think of blue light as being a slower swimmer than red, getting tangled up in the undergrowth of atoms in glass or water because of its short wavelength. Light of all colours gets less tangled up among the sparser atoms of air, but blue still travels more slowly than red. In a vacuum, where there is
no undergrowth at all, light of all colours has the same velocity: the great, universal maximum.

Raindrops have a more complicated effect than Newton's prism. Being roughly spherical, their back surface acts as a concave mirror. So they reflect the sunlight after refracting it, which is why we see the rainbow in the part of the sky opposite the sun, rather than when looking towards the sun through rain. Imagine that you are standing with your back to the sun, looking towards a shower of rain, preferably with a leaden background. We shan't see a rainbow if the sun is higher in the sky than 42 degrees above the horizon. The lower the sun, the higher the rainbow. As the sun rises in the morning, the rainbow, if one is visible, sets. As the sun sets in the evening, the rainbow rises. So let's assume that it is early morning or late afternoon. Think about a particular raindrop as a sphere. The sun is behind and slightly above you, and light from it enters the raindrop. At the boundary of air with water it is refracted and the different wavelengths that make up the sun's light are bent through different angles, as in Newton's prism. The fanned out colours go through the interior of the raindrop until they hit its concave far wall, where there they are reflected, back and down. They leave the raindrop again and some of them end up at your eye. As they pass from water back into air they are refracted for a second time, the different colours again being bent through different angles. So, a complete spectrum - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet - leaves our single raindrop, and a similar one leaves the other raindrops in the vicinity. But from any one raindrop, only a small part of the spectrum hits your eye. If your eye gets a beam of green light from one particular raindrop, the blue light from that raindrop goes above your eye, and the red light from that particular raindrop goes below. So, why do you see a complete rainbow? Because there are lots of different raindrops. A band of thousands of raindrops is giving you green light (and simultaneously giving blue light to anybody who might be suitably placed above you, and simultaneously giving red light to somebody else below you). Another band of thousands of raindrops is giving you red light (and giving somebody else blue light . . .), another band of thousands of raindrops is giving you blue light, and so on. The raindrops delivering red light to you are all at a fixed distance from you - which is why the red band is curved (you are the centre of the circle). The raindrops delivering green light to you are also at a fixed distance from you, but it is a shorter one. So the circle on which they sit has a smaller radius and the green curve sits inside the red curve. Then the blue curve sits inside that, and the whole rainbow is built up as a series of circles with you at the centre. Other observers will see different rainbows centered on themselves."
Heavenlywarrior · 36-40, M
@BlueSkyKing thank for this . Real good info. May have to read more!☺️
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
And the killing keeps everything in balance. Amazing handiwork by the Creator.
Heavenlywarrior · 36-40, M
We have measurement. And a conscience of right and wrong.
Mark Twain seems like a glass half empty kinda chap ey?
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