Choosing a side in this Israeli-Palestine conflict is so elementary
It’s why don’t support either side.
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Northwest · M
I don't understand why this would a choice between Israelis or Palestinians.
No single side can claim moral superiority here. The cause for peace collapses when people start taking sides, and justifying their choice, using tiny bits of information, often distorted, with total disregard to the bigger picture.
No single side can claim moral superiority here. The cause for peace collapses when people start taking sides, and justifying their choice, using tiny bits of information, often distorted, with total disregard to the bigger picture.
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Northwest · M
@LordShadowfire
[quote]I don't believe in Adam and Eve.
[/quote]
It was just a figure of speech. Meaning that going back to ancient, is irrelevant, when trying to deal with today's problems, given that a proper, factual context, is impossible to establish.
[quote]Even as recently as two thousand years ago, it was Jews.
[/quote]
A couple of thousand years ago, the majority of inhabitants were Jews, but that quickly went away, as Jews revolted against Romans, and perhaps as much as 60% of the Jewish population was killed.
[quote]No Muslims (and by extension, no Palestinians) even existed at that time.
[/quote]
Between the 1st and 4th centuries, Jewish numbers dwindled, and they were no longer a majority. Palestinians are not an extension of Muslims. Arabic was also not the language of the land. Aramaic was the common language, and up until the Arab invasion, Christianity dominated. In those days, Judaism was persecuted.
When the Arabs invaded, they created a balance allowing Jews, Christians and Muslims to co-exist.
This, of course is irrelevant, unless one subscribes to a specific narrative. Today, it boils down to the following: there's an occupier (Israel), occupied people (Palestinians, who now are mostly Muslim), one state: Israel, and one group of people: Palestinians, who want to form a state.
Nearly half the Israeli population does not subscribe to what Netanyahu is doing. It does not mean they support Hamas, but they recognize that the West Bank is occupied territory and giving back as a price for peace is not only fair, but the right thing to do.
In the meanwhile, tension will continue to cause flareups.
[quote]I don't believe in Adam and Eve.
[/quote]
It was just a figure of speech. Meaning that going back to ancient, is irrelevant, when trying to deal with today's problems, given that a proper, factual context, is impossible to establish.
[quote]Even as recently as two thousand years ago, it was Jews.
[/quote]
A couple of thousand years ago, the majority of inhabitants were Jews, but that quickly went away, as Jews revolted against Romans, and perhaps as much as 60% of the Jewish population was killed.
[quote]No Muslims (and by extension, no Palestinians) even existed at that time.
[/quote]
Between the 1st and 4th centuries, Jewish numbers dwindled, and they were no longer a majority. Palestinians are not an extension of Muslims. Arabic was also not the language of the land. Aramaic was the common language, and up until the Arab invasion, Christianity dominated. In those days, Judaism was persecuted.
When the Arabs invaded, they created a balance allowing Jews, Christians and Muslims to co-exist.
This, of course is irrelevant, unless one subscribes to a specific narrative. Today, it boils down to the following: there's an occupier (Israel), occupied people (Palestinians, who now are mostly Muslim), one state: Israel, and one group of people: Palestinians, who want to form a state.
Nearly half the Israeli population does not subscribe to what Netanyahu is doing. It does not mean they support Hamas, but they recognize that the West Bank is occupied territory and giving back as a price for peace is not only fair, but the right thing to do.
In the meanwhile, tension will continue to cause flareups.
LordShadowfire · M
@Northwest I am curious, then. From where do Palestinians come? I appear to have been misinformed.
Northwest · M
@LordShadowfire [quote] I am curious, then. From where do Palestinians come? I appear to have been misinformed.
[/quote]
They are native to the area. Same as the Jews. Jews branched out of the native population, as (eventually) a monotheists tribal variation, closed off to those who are not from the same tribe who are also monotheists.
You also seem to think:
Palestinian = Muslim = Arab. Not true. At one point, Christians made up the majority of non-Jews. Prior to 1948, Christians made up some 35%-40% of the West Bank / coastal region's population. Post-1948, immigration reduced that to about 10%. Millions of their descendants live in the USA.
Arab = same as Palestinian. No. The Arab world is not at war with Israel, and 100 Million Arabs are not participating with Hamas in attacking Israel. There may be solidarity, but with the exception of Syrian, which has part of its territory (Golan Heights) annexed by Israel, no one is at war with Israel.
Muslim = Arab. No. Arabs are a tiny minority in Islam.
Arab = Muslim. No
Framing this as something other than an Israeli/Hamas, triggered by Orthodox Settlers vs Arab-Israelis dispute, would be misinformed.
[/quote]
They are native to the area. Same as the Jews. Jews branched out of the native population, as (eventually) a monotheists tribal variation, closed off to those who are not from the same tribe who are also monotheists.
You also seem to think:
Palestinian = Muslim = Arab. Not true. At one point, Christians made up the majority of non-Jews. Prior to 1948, Christians made up some 35%-40% of the West Bank / coastal region's population. Post-1948, immigration reduced that to about 10%. Millions of their descendants live in the USA.
Arab = same as Palestinian. No. The Arab world is not at war with Israel, and 100 Million Arabs are not participating with Hamas in attacking Israel. There may be solidarity, but with the exception of Syrian, which has part of its territory (Golan Heights) annexed by Israel, no one is at war with Israel.
Muslim = Arab. No. Arabs are a tiny minority in Islam.
Arab = Muslim. No
Framing this as something other than an Israeli/Hamas, triggered by Orthodox Settlers vs Arab-Israelis dispute, would be misinformed.
BlueVeins · 22-25
I agree; being forced to choose between nationalists and terrorists is one Hell of a bum deal, but it's important to keep in mind that the US in particular gives Israel military aid, so not taking a side [i]is[/i] a strong political stance in itself depending on where you live.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
Hmm...
Whatever else it is, elementary in ain't.
I support the right of Israel to exist and I don't condone any side attacking civilians and sure, if the Palestinians had power, they would surely be the oppressors but...
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8]
This is not a situation about equals squaring off. It's about one side (a heavily funded and armed state) persistently breaking international law to further marginalise and humiliate a minority of its population. The west needs to stop selling arms to Israel and force them to comply with the Oslo accords. In addition, Palestinian citizens of Israel should be given actual equality in law.
Whatever else it is, elementary in ain't.
I support the right of Israel to exist and I don't condone any side attacking civilians and sure, if the Palestinians had power, they would surely be the oppressors but...
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8]
This is not a situation about equals squaring off. It's about one side (a heavily funded and armed state) persistently breaking international law to further marginalise and humiliate a minority of its population. The west needs to stop selling arms to Israel and force them to comply with the Oslo accords. In addition, Palestinian citizens of Israel should be given actual equality in law.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@LordShadowfire In Iraq and Afghanistan, they still are.
LordShadowfire · M
@Burnley123 That's what I'm saying. If American interests own most of that, what's the fighting about? (I'm not saying America is innocent in all this mess. I'm fully aware my government has been stirring the pot for decades.)
Northwest · M
@Burnley123 I did not really want to post this video, because the context is convoluted, but thank you for posting it.
As always, nothing is straightforward, when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Here's the background:
Following the 1948 Israeli war of Independence, and the subsequent UN division of Palestine, some Arab families ended up feeling West Jerusalem, to East Jerusalem. The Eastern part of the city ended up losing its few Jewish residents, going into the Western, Jewish part.
In 1956, Jordan allocated some houses to the Arab who fled their homes in Western Jerusalem.
In 1967, Israel invaded East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The Arab families remained in these homes (we're talking a couple of dozen homes or so).
Enter lawyers, who sued demanding the return of those few homes to the Jewish families that MAY (and I emphasize may, as records are not clear), have owned them. The case has been stuck in the Israeli legal system for decades.
Then suddenly, and out of the blue, armed settlers showed up, and entered the homes, first trying to evict residents, but when that failed, they stayed in place. End result: each house now has multiple families living in it: Jews and Arabs. They've managed not to kill or even attack each other, but no one is backing down.
Of course, you've noticed that the guy in the video is a red-haired American, so he has no legal claim to the house. In fact, none of the trespassers are in the legal chain of custody, but they claim that this does not matter, as the Arabs are not really the true owners.
So, those who claim to have the titles to these homes (and this is disputed by Jordan) are demanding back rent. Decades worth. The Palestinians are demanding that rent be placed in a proxy account, to be dispersed by the courts, when the case is finally settled.
My prediction, is that the courts are going to rule that rent is due, but not as much as the Jewish settlers are demanding, and the "renters" can remain in place, until the original renter (the head of the family that was placed in the home in 1956) passes away. At that point, the family may be given a sum of money, and told to leave.
Of course it's not about the rent money, it's about forcing East Jerusalem, through a combination of attrition and strong arm tactics, to become Jewish only. Even if the new people are Americans and are not genetically linked to the original Jews who shared the neighborhood with Arabs.
As always, nothing is straightforward, when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Here's the background:
Following the 1948 Israeli war of Independence, and the subsequent UN division of Palestine, some Arab families ended up feeling West Jerusalem, to East Jerusalem. The Eastern part of the city ended up losing its few Jewish residents, going into the Western, Jewish part.
In 1956, Jordan allocated some houses to the Arab who fled their homes in Western Jerusalem.
In 1967, Israel invaded East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The Arab families remained in these homes (we're talking a couple of dozen homes or so).
Enter lawyers, who sued demanding the return of those few homes to the Jewish families that MAY (and I emphasize may, as records are not clear), have owned them. The case has been stuck in the Israeli legal system for decades.
Then suddenly, and out of the blue, armed settlers showed up, and entered the homes, first trying to evict residents, but when that failed, they stayed in place. End result: each house now has multiple families living in it: Jews and Arabs. They've managed not to kill or even attack each other, but no one is backing down.
Of course, you've noticed that the guy in the video is a red-haired American, so he has no legal claim to the house. In fact, none of the trespassers are in the legal chain of custody, but they claim that this does not matter, as the Arabs are not really the true owners.
So, those who claim to have the titles to these homes (and this is disputed by Jordan) are demanding back rent. Decades worth. The Palestinians are demanding that rent be placed in a proxy account, to be dispersed by the courts, when the case is finally settled.
My prediction, is that the courts are going to rule that rent is due, but not as much as the Jewish settlers are demanding, and the "renters" can remain in place, until the original renter (the head of the family that was placed in the home in 1956) passes away. At that point, the family may be given a sum of money, and told to leave.
Of course it's not about the rent money, it's about forcing East Jerusalem, through a combination of attrition and strong arm tactics, to become Jewish only. Even if the new people are Americans and are not genetically linked to the original Jews who shared the neighborhood with Arabs.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
smiler2012 · 56-60
independentone · M
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BlueVeins · 22-25
@LordShadowfire Maybe if the new Narragansett state was established and armed by the PRC (not that that makes sense or anything). I feel like most white people would not be cool with their homes getting... resettled regardless of whose great great great [...] grandparents owned the property.
LordShadowfire · M