Choosing a side in this Israeli-Palestine conflict is so elementary
It’s why don’t support either side.
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Northwest · M
I don't understand why this would a choice between Israelis or Palestinians.
No single side can claim moral superiority here. The cause for peace collapses when people start taking sides, and justifying their choice, using tiny bits of information, often distorted, with total disregard to the bigger picture.
No single side can claim moral superiority here. The cause for peace collapses when people start taking sides, and justifying their choice, using tiny bits of information, often distorted, with total disregard to the bigger picture.
Northwest · M
@LordShadowfire [quote]The problem is that one group can prove they were there first. Not that the Palestinians stole it from the Israelis; somebody else did that.[/quote]
I think that going back to Adam and Eve, is not a helpful approach. On the contrary.
Insisting (general statement, not saying you did that) that one side is right and one side is wrong, is a catalyst for continued conflict. By picking any point in time, one can make an argument that party A is right, and someone else can take another point in time, to prove that party B is right.
I've lived in Israel, but I also traveled extensively through the Arab world. My personal position on this, is that the real obstacle to peace is two pronged: The Orthodox settlers/Evangelicals and Hamas. What we're seeing now is emotions run a-mock. While I don't mind seeing the Hamas leadership taken out, I don't think this will produce a solution that lasts more than a day or two.
In the meanwhile, Netanyahu is loving it, because it increases the chances his rival will fail to form a government within the allotted time slot, giving him another shot at potentially forming yet another ultra orthodox-controlled government, and further away from the goal that will produce a permanent solution: a 2-state solution.
I think that going back to Adam and Eve, is not a helpful approach. On the contrary.
Insisting (general statement, not saying you did that) that one side is right and one side is wrong, is a catalyst for continued conflict. By picking any point in time, one can make an argument that party A is right, and someone else can take another point in time, to prove that party B is right.
I've lived in Israel, but I also traveled extensively through the Arab world. My personal position on this, is that the real obstacle to peace is two pronged: The Orthodox settlers/Evangelicals and Hamas. What we're seeing now is emotions run a-mock. While I don't mind seeing the Hamas leadership taken out, I don't think this will produce a solution that lasts more than a day or two.
In the meanwhile, Netanyahu is loving it, because it increases the chances his rival will fail to form a government within the allotted time slot, giving him another shot at potentially forming yet another ultra orthodox-controlled government, and further away from the goal that will produce a permanent solution: a 2-state solution.
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@Northwest I don't believe in Adam and Eve. Even as recently as two thousand years ago, it was Jews. No Muslims (and by extension, no Palestinians) even existed at that time.
But really, for me, this is more of an abstract exercise. I prefer to let others negotiate if they like.
But really, for me, this is more of an abstract exercise. I prefer to let others negotiate if they like.
Northwest · M
@LordShadowfire
[quote]I don't believe in Adam and Eve.
[/quote]
It was just a figure of speech. Meaning that going back to ancient, is irrelevant, when trying to deal with today's problems, given that a proper, factual context, is impossible to establish.
[quote]Even as recently as two thousand years ago, it was Jews.
[/quote]
A couple of thousand years ago, the majority of inhabitants were Jews, but that quickly went away, as Jews revolted against Romans, and perhaps as much as 60% of the Jewish population was killed.
[quote]No Muslims (and by extension, no Palestinians) even existed at that time.
[/quote]
Between the 1st and 4th centuries, Jewish numbers dwindled, and they were no longer a majority. Palestinians are not an extension of Muslims. Arabic was also not the language of the land. Aramaic was the common language, and up until the Arab invasion, Christianity dominated. In those days, Judaism was persecuted.
When the Arabs invaded, they created a balance allowing Jews, Christians and Muslims to co-exist.
This, of course is irrelevant, unless one subscribes to a specific narrative. Today, it boils down to the following: there's an occupier (Israel), occupied people (Palestinians, who now are mostly Muslim), one state: Israel, and one group of people: Palestinians, who want to form a state.
Nearly half the Israeli population does not subscribe to what Netanyahu is doing. It does not mean they support Hamas, but they recognize that the West Bank is occupied territory and giving back as a price for peace is not only fair, but the right thing to do.
In the meanwhile, tension will continue to cause flareups.
[quote]I don't believe in Adam and Eve.
[/quote]
It was just a figure of speech. Meaning that going back to ancient, is irrelevant, when trying to deal with today's problems, given that a proper, factual context, is impossible to establish.
[quote]Even as recently as two thousand years ago, it was Jews.
[/quote]
A couple of thousand years ago, the majority of inhabitants were Jews, but that quickly went away, as Jews revolted against Romans, and perhaps as much as 60% of the Jewish population was killed.
[quote]No Muslims (and by extension, no Palestinians) even existed at that time.
[/quote]
Between the 1st and 4th centuries, Jewish numbers dwindled, and they were no longer a majority. Palestinians are not an extension of Muslims. Arabic was also not the language of the land. Aramaic was the common language, and up until the Arab invasion, Christianity dominated. In those days, Judaism was persecuted.
When the Arabs invaded, they created a balance allowing Jews, Christians and Muslims to co-exist.
This, of course is irrelevant, unless one subscribes to a specific narrative. Today, it boils down to the following: there's an occupier (Israel), occupied people (Palestinians, who now are mostly Muslim), one state: Israel, and one group of people: Palestinians, who want to form a state.
Nearly half the Israeli population does not subscribe to what Netanyahu is doing. It does not mean they support Hamas, but they recognize that the West Bank is occupied territory and giving back as a price for peace is not only fair, but the right thing to do.
In the meanwhile, tension will continue to cause flareups.
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@Northwest I am curious, then. From where do Palestinians come? I appear to have been misinformed.
Northwest · M
@LordShadowfire [quote] I am curious, then. From where do Palestinians come? I appear to have been misinformed.
[/quote]
They are native to the area. Same as the Jews. Jews branched out of the native population, as (eventually) a monotheists tribal variation, closed off to those who are not from the same tribe who are also monotheists.
You also seem to think:
Palestinian = Muslim = Arab. Not true. At one point, Christians made up the majority of non-Jews. Prior to 1948, Christians made up some 35%-40% of the West Bank / coastal region's population. Post-1948, immigration reduced that to about 10%. Millions of their descendants live in the USA.
Arab = same as Palestinian. No. The Arab world is not at war with Israel, and 100 Million Arabs are not participating with Hamas in attacking Israel. There may be solidarity, but with the exception of Syrian, which has part of its territory (Golan Heights) annexed by Israel, no one is at war with Israel.
Muslim = Arab. No. Arabs are a tiny minority in Islam.
Arab = Muslim. No
Framing this as something other than an Israeli/Hamas, triggered by Orthodox Settlers vs Arab-Israelis dispute, would be misinformed.
[/quote]
They are native to the area. Same as the Jews. Jews branched out of the native population, as (eventually) a monotheists tribal variation, closed off to those who are not from the same tribe who are also monotheists.
You also seem to think:
Palestinian = Muslim = Arab. Not true. At one point, Christians made up the majority of non-Jews. Prior to 1948, Christians made up some 35%-40% of the West Bank / coastal region's population. Post-1948, immigration reduced that to about 10%. Millions of their descendants live in the USA.
Arab = same as Palestinian. No. The Arab world is not at war with Israel, and 100 Million Arabs are not participating with Hamas in attacking Israel. There may be solidarity, but with the exception of Syrian, which has part of its territory (Golan Heights) annexed by Israel, no one is at war with Israel.
Muslim = Arab. No. Arabs are a tiny minority in Islam.
Arab = Muslim. No
Framing this as something other than an Israeli/Hamas, triggered by Orthodox Settlers vs Arab-Israelis dispute, would be misinformed.