What do you think of Israel declaring the country as a "Jewish national state"?

@SW-User You can't have a hegemony without the barrel of a gun pointed at your head.

@Gumba1000 well that's sickeningly barbaric. Why not just be peaceful and support one another?

@SW-User Because humans aren't designed that way.

@Burnley123 WE do nothing. They have had decades to work it out, they don't want to work it out. Leave them to it. We can't blame ourselves for our country's past mistakes when they happened before the majority of the population was born. Otherwise we should be claiming reparations from the Normans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings and Romans etc.

@Gumba1000 The NATO powers massively subsidise the Israeli military and have done for decades. Leaving them to sort it out would be an improvement.

@Burnley123 I agree on that. We should stop selling our arms to radical states.

@RodionRomanovitch You infer that the Jews need recognition to be so bold. They have been blowing the sh*t out of Arabs since 1945. They don't need recognition to pass such laws. That's like saying a racist required approval from the KKK before he would shoot blacks.

@Gumba1000 I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

P.S. Are you wearing your Minions onesie ?

@RodionRomanovitch I'm not surprised you don't know what I'm talking about. You seem the kind of person that laughs on the way home from a comedy gig.

@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout "No out rage that Palestine isn’t Jew state." - What does that even mean ? There is no State of Palestine last time I checked.

"if you demand Israel be secular... shouldn’t you demand the same from everyone?" - Who's demanding that ?

blah blah blah commiepez.. once again you think I care what you say.. well I do.. bout as much as you do about my comments.. 👌

@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout You just spout stupid shite about stuff you know nothing about. You're a fucking embarrassment mate.

@Burnley123 One other point.

If we were talking about a despotic regime, we could argue that the Palestinian people are innocent bystanders in wars and conflicts perpetrated by their leaders. That argument doesn't hold because, for the last 70 years, Palestinians have voted into office one terrorist organisation after another.

In December 2014, Forbes published a list of the wealthiest terrorist groups on the planet. With an annual turnover of $1 billion, Hamas came in at no. 2. Meanwhile, their people are living in squalor and are routinely used as human shields.

Why don't they use some of that money to actually help their people?

Answer: Because they don't want peace.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesinternational/2014/12/12/the-worlds-10-richest-terrorist-organizations/#6bc519a24f8a

@room101 You seem to be ascribing two points of view to me that I have not articulated:

1) That Israel should not exist as a state.
2) That Palestinian people are innocent bystanders.

On the first point, I support the two-state solution. By this I mean a genuine two-state solution which complies with international law and the Oslo accords. The Palestinians also have a right to be there and also have a solid claim on the territory. In fact, the whole territory was called Palestine until 1948. Arab people have lived there for almost 2,000 years, which surely counts as a historical right.

Both people's have a historic right, through different periods and different times. The Palestinian right is arguably more central because the modern state of Israel and Zionism itself are a relatively new phenomenon. A largely twentieth-century movement, harking back to biblical times. However, the state of Israel exists and has a right to exist under the Balfour declaration, Oslo accords and international law. For everything that Jews have suffered in Europe, I would never begrudge them the right to a state.

Jerusalem is a place of religious significance to both Jews and Muslims. Therefore any two-state solution which aims at equality must consider Jerusalem the property of both people's. Moving the US embassy there was a provocative act and will only entrench both Israeli domination and Palestinian grievance.

https://www.history.com/news/why-jews-and-muslims-both-have-religious-claims-on-jerusalem

Are Palestinians innocent bystanders in wars and conflicts perpetrated by their leaders? No, they vote for their leaders and they support them. They are citizens of what is recognised by law as occupied territory. Hamas should not reject Israel's right to exist though it has softened its stance recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

Hamas is also wrong to target Israeli citizens and I condemn their terrorism. However, the effect of this is far far less than the violence carried out by the Israeli state. Both in terms of action and in body count and in terms of action. This is not self-defense but brutal domination:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fire-at-every-person-you-see-israeli-soldiers-reveal-they-were-ordered-to-shoot-to-kill-in-gaza-even-10223427.html


My issue in this conflict is not to denote moral superiority to one side over another but to look for a way of reconciling this conflict on equal terms. In times gone by, Israel needed international protection from its regional enemies and perhaps did not receive enough. Now it has more power than all its enemies combined, Uncritical support from the US and even Saudi Arabia as a tacit ally. The state of Israel is under no threat. The very prospect of a Palestinian state is under threat from Israel.

A solution would need to involve the US and EU to restrict arms sales and threaten to remove the aid which is used to buy them. That would force Israel to the negotiating table and provide at least a very rocky road map to a peaceful solution.

We strongly disagree on this but I do respect you as a person and thank you for debating respectfully.

@Burnley123 No, I do not ascribe points of view that you have never articulated. I'm simply challenging the notion that Palestinians are persecuted victims.

I also challenge the notion that they have a claim to the territory that is equal to that of the Israelis. I am also definitely challenging the notion that their claim is "more central".

Muslim Arabs invaded and occupied the territory in 634AD. They built The Dome of the Rock in 691AD, on the site of Judaisms holiest structure, Solomon's Temple. So no, they have not been there for 2,000 years. And, if you feel that invasion and occupation makes a territorial claim "more central" well, I'm sorry but I don't see much equality in that stance. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I really don't know how else to express myself on this one without being a little harsh.

Every nation has the right to decide for itself where its capital is located. Israel exercised that right. America has finally recognised that right (I can't believe that I'm actually agreeing with trump on something.......I may need to scrub my fingers, and my keyboard, with bleach after this). The fact that Palestinians and other Muslim nations refuse to accept that is little more than emotional blackmail. Followed up with terrorist acts.

I have spent the better part of my adult life going to Israel, the Palestinian territories, various other parts of the Middle East, Egypt and, all over the Mediterranean coast of North Africa. And I have absolutely no idea what would bring peace to the region (and the Islamic world in general). There have been times when I've punted for the two state solution. There have been times when I've punted for a single state, Israel.

What I do know is that any form of foreign interference won't do it. Because that's been a contributing factor for decades.

@Graylight That's right, it's nothing to do with the rest of the world. Let the Israelis get on with it.

@Graciebaby I've made my case here. Now I'll rest it.

@Graciebaby I had to look that up, I had no idea what you meant.

I enjoy history ..

https://www.history.ox.ac.uk/::ognode-62416::/files/teaching-resources-expulsion-jews

Just tell me who do you think they are?

@Xuan12 Its not a meaningless declaration but a powerful symbolic act. Though yes it is part of that process.