What do you think of Israel declaring the country as a "Jewish national state"?

@room101 If you take a position to defend minority groups wherever they are, that is a consistent position.

@Burnley123 At the risk of sounding callous about the plight of the persecuted, my first position is to ask why a given minority group needs defending.

The Palestinians have continuously rejected any and all attempts at peaceful co-existence with Israel. I'm not suggesting that Israel has been blameless but, consider what happened when, in 1947, the UN recognised the state of Israel. Consider what has happened every single time there has been a conflict between the two sides. A cease fire is declared and that cease fire then gets broken. Often within days, if not hours, of it being declared.

@room101 I also don't defend the Palestinians unreservedly. There is genuine fault on both sides and Israel is surrounded by enemies. However, it is no so dominant (and brutally dominant) that the balance needs to be redressed. You can't ask for a peaceful settlement without some notion of equality. The actions mentioned in the OP are not gonna help peace and far from it. Also, there are still illegal settlement on the west Bank, theft of water, war crimes..

If Israel wants peace rather than domination, it needs to behave differently.

@Burnley123 Israel has been the homeland of the Jews for more than 3,000 years. Hebrew has been the national language of the Jews for almost as long. How is the declaration of those historical realities contrary to peace in the region?

Answer: Because Palestinians, and many Muslim nations, don't like it.

Of course Israel has a role to play in establishing and maintaining peace in the region. Of course some of their actions prevent peace. But, acknowledging their national identity is not, in and of itself, contrary to peace.

At the anti-trump rally on Friday, a number of people were carrying placards which declared:

"Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine."

It is not. It's been the spiritual capital of Judaism for almost as long as Judaism has existed.

I would argue that those types of declarations are far more contrary to peace than what is stated in the OP.

@Burnley123 One other point.

If we were talking about a despotic regime, we could argue that the Palestinian people are innocent bystanders in wars and conflicts perpetrated by their leaders. That argument doesn't hold because, for the last 70 years, Palestinians have voted into office one terrorist organisation after another.

In December 2014, Forbes published a list of the wealthiest terrorist groups on the planet. With an annual turnover of $1 billion, Hamas came in at no. 2. Meanwhile, their people are living in squalor and are routinely used as human shields.

Why don't they use some of that money to actually help their people?

Answer: Because they don't want peace.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesinternational/2014/12/12/the-worlds-10-richest-terrorist-organizations/#6bc519a24f8a

@room101 You seem to be ascribing two points of view to me that I have not articulated:

1) That Israel should not exist as a state.
2) That Palestinian people are innocent bystanders.

On the first point, I support the two-state solution. By this I mean a genuine two-state solution which complies with international law and the Oslo accords. The Palestinians also have a right to be there and also have a solid claim on the territory. In fact, the whole territory was called Palestine until 1948. Arab people have lived there for almost 2,000 years, which surely counts as a historical right.

Both people's have a historic right, through different periods and different times. The Palestinian right is arguably more central because the modern state of Israel and Zionism itself are a relatively new phenomenon. A largely twentieth-century movement, harking back to biblical times. However, the state of Israel exists and has a right to exist under the Balfour declaration, Oslo accords and international law. For everything that Jews have suffered in Europe, I would never begrudge them the right to a state.

Jerusalem is a place of religious significance to both Jews and Muslims. Therefore any two-state solution which aims at equality must consider Jerusalem the property of both people's. Moving the US embassy there was a provocative act and will only entrench both Israeli domination and Palestinian grievance.

https://www.history.com/news/why-jews-and-muslims-both-have-religious-claims-on-jerusalem

Are Palestinians innocent bystanders in wars and conflicts perpetrated by their leaders? No, they vote for their leaders and they support them. They are citizens of what is recognised by law as occupied territory. Hamas should not reject Israel's right to exist though it has softened its stance recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

Hamas is also wrong to target Israeli citizens and I condemn their terrorism. However, the effect of this is far far less than the violence carried out by the Israeli state. Both in terms of action and in body count and in terms of action. This is not self-defense but brutal domination:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fire-at-every-person-you-see-israeli-soldiers-reveal-they-were-ordered-to-shoot-to-kill-in-gaza-even-10223427.html


My issue in this conflict is not to denote moral superiority to one side over another but to look for a way of reconciling this conflict on equal terms. In times gone by, Israel needed international protection from its regional enemies and perhaps did not receive enough. Now it has more power than all its enemies combined, Uncritical support from the US and even Saudi Arabia as a tacit ally. The state of Israel is under no threat. The very prospect of a Palestinian state is under threat from Israel.

A solution would need to involve the US and EU to restrict arms sales and threaten to remove the aid which is used to buy them. That would force Israel to the negotiating table and provide at least a very rocky road map to a peaceful solution.

We strongly disagree on this but I do respect you as a person and thank you for debating respectfully.

@Burnley123 No, I do not ascribe points of view that you have never articulated. I'm simply challenging the notion that Palestinians are persecuted victims.

I also challenge the notion that they have a claim to the territory that is equal to that of the Israelis. I am also definitely challenging the notion that their claim is "more central".

Muslim Arabs invaded and occupied the territory in 634AD. They built The Dome of the Rock in 691AD, on the site of Judaisms holiest structure, Solomon's Temple. So no, they have not been there for 2,000 years. And, if you feel that invasion and occupation makes a territorial claim "more central" well, I'm sorry but I don't see much equality in that stance. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I really don't know how else to express myself on this one without being a little harsh.

Every nation has the right to decide for itself where its capital is located. Israel exercised that right. America has finally recognised that right (I can't believe that I'm actually agreeing with trump on something.......I may need to scrub my fingers, and my keyboard, with bleach after this). The fact that Palestinians and other Muslim nations refuse to accept that is little more than emotional blackmail. Followed up with terrorist acts.

I have spent the better part of my adult life going to Israel, the Palestinian territories, various other parts of the Middle East, Egypt and, all over the Mediterranean coast of North Africa. And I have absolutely no idea what would bring peace to the region (and the Islamic world in general). There have been times when I've punted for the two state solution. There have been times when I've punted for a single state, Israel.

What I do know is that any form of foreign interference won't do it. Because that's been a contributing factor for decades.