Should christians be allowed to attempt to indoctrinate children with their beliefs? [Spirituality & Religion]

Whatever you wish. God holds parents responsible for how they raise their children, and that's why he instructed them to raise them in the Lord. He was pretty zealous about that, and you just made fun of Him. @suzie1960:

@GraceFromEP: I don't believe in your god. I raised my children as I saw fit and managed to shield them from exploitation by christians.

@GraceFromEP: Atheists cannot believe in the existence of gods (other than as figments of some peoples' imaginations) by definition. Anyone who believes gods are real is not atheists. It's that simple.

If someone presented proof that their god exists I would consider it. Thus far, nobody has presented any evidence supporting the hypothesis that the christian god exists. The best they can do is tell me I need to believe it exists before I'll be able to see the evidence. That's just not good enough.

@MrGrey: See my reply to room101.

@suzie1960: I see. But the ones who usually indoctrinate children are the parents.

@MrGrey: Fair point but I don't believe society should interfere too much with the family. I'm more concerned about christian zealots corrupting children in general. In the UK it's actually a legal requirement for schools to force students to take part in acts of christian worship. :(

@ChipmunkErnie: I'm asking about christians attempting to indoctrinate children in general. I don't mean parents teaching their own children.

@suzie1960: Ahh -- yes, well I imagine the Jewisj majority does the same in Israel, the Islamic majority the same in Muslim countries, the Hindus in India, etc. Those in charge tend to try and make everyone else believe as they do.

@ChipmunkErnie: Qute possibly, but I'm more concerned with protecting myself and my family here in the UK.

@suzie1960: There you go again with your weird assertions.

I’ve lived in the same part of North London since we arrived in the UK when I was five years old. Back then, we did indeed sing hymns and say the Lords’ Prayer at morning assembly. But that was a long time ago.

None of that has been the case for many, many years. Regardless of what the law says, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that many British kids don’t know any hymns, wouldn’t know where to start if asked to recite the Lords’ Prayer, think that Christmas is the day when baby Jesus was born but have no understanding of what that actually means and, have little to no clue of the religious significance of Easter.

And it’s not just in the UK. I’ve got family members and close friends who live in and are from Rome, i.e. the seat of the Christian world, and they’re the least “indoctrinated” people I know.

I’m sorry, I really don’t want to be rude but, if anybody is displaying delusions here, it’s you.

Your profile doesn't say where you live (as is your prerogative) and all of you've given us is this rather cryptic statement that you had to "protect them [your children] from christian zealots when they were younger".

Weird. Very weird indeed.

@room101: UK law only applies to the UK. I doubt many countries have law that explicity require schools to indoctrinate students with christianity so I'm not surprised Italian children are not.

The delusions I refer to are the imaginary friends christians claim to have. What's so cryptic about my statement that I protected my children from christians? I thought it was perfectly clear. If you tell me what is it you don't understand, I'll try to rephrase it in simpler terms.

@suzie1960: there's so much that I don't understand about your assertions and comments.

I don't understand your insistence that British schools indoctrinate children into Christianity. A law exists. It has been supplemented by various other laws on education. It has been interpreted in a variety of ways. It is not enforced.

I don't understand what specifically you had to protect your children from.

But what I really don't get is why you have such a hard on for Christianity. I wonder what you'd be like if you lived in a Muslim country.

I cannot believe what you just said: "Jesus actually existed, but whether or not he was the Son of God is debatable."??? That is the basis of Christian beliefs.
@Mummymozzie:

@DevilsAdvocate: My question refers to third parties, strangers, attempting to force their beliefs onto young children. That's why I use the word "indoctrinate", they don't just teach about their religion, they attempt to get children to accept their beliefs uncritically.

I don't care what the church thinks, in the UK the age of majority is 18.

Unlike the US, state ("public") schools are actually required by law to teach christianity and to hold an act of collective religious worship (which must be predominately christian) every day. All the school's students are required to take part. There is a little known opt out provision but parents are not informed of it and christian dominated schools have been known to deny it exists or even refuse to comply.

@room101: Quite obviously you can't debate logically, all you can do is call any view that doesn't concur with yours "ridiculous". Your statement that - is really ridiculous as it implies I'm a member of every religion except christianity.

I do not deny that the UK is nominally a christian country, only that it's irrelevant. It just allows christians to feel smug about being members of the "official religion" as if it gives validity to their beliefs. It's called argumentum ad populum, a technique used by those unable to refute a claim logically.

My poll is to guage opinion and, hopefully, to get some people to think about how they see different belief systems.

We have some freedom to express our beliefs but that doesn't alter the fact that the law in this "christian country" requires schools to force their students to attend daily christian assemblies. That some schools chose to break the law (thus setting a very bad example) is irrelevant.

@suzie1960: I call your arguments ridiculous because that’s what they are. Let’s have a little look shall we.

“is really ridiculous as it implies I'm a member of every religion except Christianity.”

My comment implies nothing of the sort. It states the very obvious reality that people only try to convert those who are not of their religion.

“I do not deny that the UK is nominally a christian country, only that it's irrelevant.”

It’s extremely relevant because we are discussing the behaviour of Christians in a Christian country. No matter how much you try to deny that fact.

“The only reason the UK is nominally christian is because the early christians had more ferocious warriors than the indigenous peoples.”

I gave you two sources that refute your claim. You’ve ignored them both. Instead, you continue in your daft denials.

“I said christians attempted to indoctrinate others, I didn't say they were particularly successful. Without the sword to back them up their attempts usually fail.”

Christians are unsuccessful in their attempts to indoctrinate not because of a lack of swords (or any weapons). America, another “nominally” Christian country, has the biggest military on the planet. They seem quite happy to invade any nation at the drop of a hat. I haven’t seen them try to spread Christianity into Afghanistan and Iraq. Have you?

Surely the logical conclusion to all of this is that Christians are unsuccessful in their attempts to indoctrinate because they are making no such attempts. Well, maybe in the fevered corners of your paranoid delusions they are.

Your poll does not gauge opinion because it only provides three very specific choices. Choices which have little or no bearing on reality. Instead of giving Satanism as your first choice, had you said “any other religions” then there would have been no confirmation bias inherent in your poll. But, you gave an option that very few people were likely to pick.

“UK law only applies to the UK.”

No shit Sherlock! But you miss the point entirely. Rome, specifically The Vatican City, is deemed to be the centre of Christendom. And yet, even in Italy as whole, your assertion that Christians seek to indoctrinate doesn’t hold.

“I doubt many countries have law that explicity require schools to indoctrinate students with christianity”

Your doubts are unfounded, as are all your arguments. Over the last ninety years, there has been a swathe of legal battles and legislation in America where the proponents Creationist doctrine are trying to undermine science.

THAT’s indoctrination. Not a British law that nobody enforces.

“That some schools chose to break the law (thus setting a very bad example) is irrelevant.”

Why do you say that this is setting a bad example? Surely someone who hates Christianity so much would be pleased. And no, it’s not irrelevant. It’s highly relevant because it refutes your claim.

“Have you ever seen the film The Wicker Man……….”

Are you seriously siting a work of cinematic fiction as evidence of Christian arrogance?

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy and arrogance inherent in your arguments?

@room101: You really have lost the plot. :(


You used that to explain why only christians attempt to convert me. According to that statement, members of other religions don't because I'm already a member of their religion. Can't you even understand your own arguements?


So what makes it "a christian country"? It's not that the majority of the population are actively practising christians. I thought it was supposed to be a free country, including freedom of religion - the antithesis of christianity.


They also have the first amendment which, inter alia, keep church and state separate. That hasn't stopped christian extremists in the US killing non-believers.


The option "any other religions" would, naturally, have included Satanism but how many people would have considered that? I explicitly said Satanism to make that fact clear and because it's in direct opposition to christianity.


Vatican City is an independent state. The entire population is Catholic so thee is nobody there to indoctrinate. Italy isd another country entirely that doesn't, so far as I'm aware, require schools to indoctrinate their students.


All of which have been unsuccessful because of that pesky first amendment.


When a school blatantly breaks the law it sets a bad example to its students. It doesn't matter that I disagree with the law. In some ways I am pleased school are standing up to christian oppressors but it would be better if they did it through proper channels.

The arrogance shown by the police officer in the Wicker Man is typical of a lot of the christians I've encountered. That's the only reason I mentioned it.

Your attitude is becoming increasingly arrogant too.