This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6).
Isaiah makes it clear throughout that there is only one God.
What translation is that? I can't find any version that uses the word " gods"? I see host ( fallen angels), spiritual forces of evil,powers above and heaven's armies.
@REMsleep That's the NLV And host could certainly refer to other gods, powers of the heavens. It doesn't mean angels necessarily, only a plurality.
[quote]Isaiah makes it clear throughout that there is only one God. [/quote]
Evidently not throughout. And certainly not throughout the bible where in a few places a clear distinction is made between false gods of wood and stone, spirits and actual other gods who exist but aren't as powerful as Yahweh
@Pikachu The Bible never acknowledges lesser gods. False gods are spoken of regularly and even men are called gods and people can sometimes make things or other people their gods. But if you read any verse in context no actual lesser gods are acknowledged.
[quote]But if you read any verse in context no actual lesser gods are acknowledged. [/quote]
100% disagree. If you read many verses in context they do indeed seem to indicate other gods and require apologetics to explain why they actually do not.
First from Psalms where the lord is said not be the only god but to be above other gods and second in Exodus where (mirroring Isaiah) God is going to execute his punishment on the people of Egypt AND their gods.
@Pikachu Those two are so easy. I can't see a Bible teacher or scholar ( even secular one) literally understanding the authors of these verses to indicate actual other gods. Its very important to understand translation issues and the language and context of the time. I hope that you don't dismiss what I am saying as merely apologetics. This way that gods is used in the verse from psalms is super common especially in the OT. Other gods are idols. Its even one of the 10 commandments. Back then many people culturally were tied into ethnic worship cultures. This simply means you cannot hold onto your other gods and still follow the one true god. This is explained over and over.
Exodus 12:12 For Iwill pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; andagainst all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment:IamtheLord
The Lord= only one, true one
Commonly known that Egypt had many gods. This verse is to say that every other god is false, all believers and worshippers will know that they worship falsely. Judgment of false gods will be executed. Not that there are literally other gods. Also I saw in another comment that the Bible does acknowledge supernatural powers not from him. This is True as well. Some that worship false gods may be worshipping fallen Angels and such.
Oh i know they're very keen on saying that you must follow the god of Abraham. But even the fact that this needs to be said is rather telling imo. If you have a god who can and does perform miracles for his people and the other gods are all imaginary then you don't need to do so much propaganda.
[quote]The Lord= only one, true one[/quote]
Not sure what you mean here.
[quote]This verse is to say that every other god is false,[/quote]
I'm not so sure. The Bible does often explicitly reference [i]false [/i]gods but it's not doing that here.
@Pikachu When the Bible constatly says the phrase "The Lord". Its to emphasize that there is only one God. The is placed in front of the many names of God often. The Alpha, The Omega, etc..
Also the average everyday person wasn't seeing any miracles just as today. The Bible tells of some miracles over thousands of years. Most people never witness any overtly obvious supernatural events and even when they do, some will assume that it is tricks, slight of hand or witchcraft. In the same verse that "gods" are meantioned it says that God says that he is " The Lord" The word "The" indicates that he is the only Lord God.
The Targum of Jonathan composed in 30-70 CE which is a Jewish scholarly Bible Translation from Hebrew to Aramaic. I am not Jewish and do not have much knowledge of their various resources and I can't know that I would agree with all of their religious commentary, but in this verse I do agree with their tranalation and commentary which they gather from various sources to enhance the translation. The interpretation from that source says
[b]Exodus 12:12 And I will be revealed in the land of Mizraim in the majesty of My glory this night, and with Me ninety thousand myriads of destroying angels; and I will slay all the firstborn in the land of Mizraim, of man and of beast, and against all the idols of the Mizraee I will execute four judgments: the molten idols shall be melted, the idols of stone be broken, the idols of clay shall he shattered, and the idols of wood be made dust, that the Mizraee may know that I am the Lord. [/b]
[quote]The Lord". Its to emphasize that there is only one God.[/quote]
Is it? It says so often "the Lord, your god" and similar that it seems rather to be referring to Lord as in the highest, not the only.
[quote]the average everyday person wasn't seeing any miracles[/quote]
But they were, actually. For a long time. The average person among the chosen saw mana from heaven, plagues in Egypt, pillars of fire, the earth swallowing sinners, fire consuming priests and on a and on.
But within the lifetimes of those people (or at least within a generation) we were still seeing prohibitions against worshiping other gods. If other gods were actually imaginary and doing nothing then that seems like a crazy thing to me.
[quote]The word "The" indicates that he is the only Lord God. [/quote]
I think this is where you're losing me. Perhaps you can show me an etymological support for that?
Why does "the lord" mean "the only" ?
[quote]The interpretation from that source says [/quote]
Actually that's a good example of what i'm talking about. Idols are often called out as such, false gods, while other gods seem to be real to the point where they may be subjugated by the most high.
@Pikachu The Hebrews didn't see any of those things as miracles. Often when God provides its easy to dismiss. Manna means, "what is it?" in ancient Hebrew. To this day some in the middle east are still collecting manna. The Israelites wandered so long because they didn't always believe. They doubted. They didn't obey. We can not know exactly what they were eating but we have learned alot about how such food items are naturally produced. One such similar item is the hard white wafer like byproduct of plant sap processed by insects overnight. This is a miracle but is also natural. Several trees or plants + insects produce these sugary pellets. The Bible describes it as honey like seeds.
lol well now you're just confusing me. You're giving naturalistic explanations for the alleged miracles of god which seems to undermine the idea that god is god who did miracles.
[quote]The Hebrews didn't see any of those things as miracles. Often when God provides its easy to dismiss.[/quote]
I think that's flawed point of view. They had a direct line to god for a number of years. People who actually spoke to god. A direct and repeated causal relationship between what they did and what god did to them as a result. They (ostensibly) had very good reasons to believe that god was real. Certainly more than other nations with imaginary gods would have had....unless all the gods are imaginary and everything attributed to them is just human imagination...
@Pikachu You are limiting God by saying that his miracles must be flashy and look like a supernatural events like on TV. Sometimes they did but....
I was never taught that way and the Bible often tells how people saw or benefited from his miracles and just a short while later doubted them.
[b] Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know the path of the wind,or how the body is formed in a mother's womb so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things. [/b] NIV
other translations use the word mysterious. This means that we can't put our limit on how God works or provides as you did. It just happens. It might very well be a natural or mundane process such as a baby's conception, the point is that the Hebrews survived in the desert as he said they would. My way of thinking is not anti or extra biblical, its what is taught in church.
In the miracle of Jesus walking on water he told Peter to get out of the boat and come to join him and Peter got scared halfway to him and began freaking out. How can a guy that was a direct follower of Jesus himself and that currently was watching him perform a miracle become afraid that the miracle would fail. This is human nature to doubt and disbelieve.
@REMsleep [quote]You are limiting God by saying that his miracles must be flashy [/quote]
I don't know that they have to be but it's kinda hard to call them miracles otherwise, imo.
[quote]the Bible often tells how people saw or benefited from his miracles and just a short while later doubted them. [/quote]
lol yeah. I find that to be a pretty hilarious theme. Like come on guys. Not to mention that when you complain god then kills a bunch of you or sets you wandering. Get a clue.
