So these days most Christians say marriage is between one man and one woman...but the patriarchs of the OT often had many wives.... [Spirituality & Religion]
[b]When and why did that rule change?[/b]
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I think most Jews will tell you that polygamy has never been the norm. The usual reasons a man marries again in the bible is because of infertility, legal necessity or loss of loved one. Leaders were known to marry multiple times or have concubines. This was more a power move than anything.
Where Christianity comes in, the New Testament gets a lot more explicit about one man and one woman. Hard to read Paul's stuff and think he'd ever be ok with polygamy. Jesus too doubled down on it by talking against adultery and even looking at other women.
Then there's Islam... Muhammad himself was a polygamist so some Islamic groups think polygamy is fine.
Lastly there's Mormons. Officially they aren't for it but their members do practise it. So much so that Utah decriminalised it this year.
Where Christianity comes in, the New Testament gets a lot more explicit about one man and one woman. Hard to read Paul's stuff and think he'd ever be ok with polygamy. Jesus too doubled down on it by talking against adultery and even looking at other women.
Then there's Islam... Muhammad himself was a polygamist so some Islamic groups think polygamy is fine.
Lastly there's Mormons. Officially they aren't for it but their members do practise it. So much so that Utah decriminalised it this year.
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@Pikachu Polygamy is technically adultery. You can't lie with another woman without breaking the covenant to your wife. But there were loopholes. Like if your wife couldn't give you a child, or if she ran away, or died, or left the faith. Or if your brother died you'd have to marry his wife too. It's not like Jews just married whomever they pleased. There were guidelines to follow
@Qwerty14
Yeah there were deffs rules for how you could get a new wife or what counts as adultery but where do we get the rules that having several wives was adultery?
I mean king David has ALL the wives and that was cool. It was when he committed adultery with another man's wife that he got in trouble.
Yeah there were deffs rules for how you could get a new wife or what counts as adultery but where do we get the rules that having several wives was adultery?
I mean king David has ALL the wives and that was cool. It was when he committed adultery with another man's wife that he got in trouble.
@Pikachu Yeah that's basic property stuff. You see Jews don't believe in touching another man's belongings. As sexist as it is, some Jews today still won't touch a woman, even to shake her hand.
As for leaders having multiple wives or concubines, it was pretty normal. Sometimes it was a power thing. Other times it was a wealth thing. The idea of having a king is pretty anti Jewish anyhow so I wouldn't consider it the norm for Jews.
As for leaders having multiple wives or concubines, it was pretty normal. Sometimes it was a power thing. Other times it was a wealth thing. The idea of having a king is pretty anti Jewish anyhow so I wouldn't consider it the norm for Jews.
@Pikachu You asked when did monogamy become the norm in Christianity? It always was. It's always been the norm in most cultures. Usually when it wasn't practised it was due to some technical reason. As for why is monogamy the norm? Probably an evolutionary tactic. Keeps the gene pool varied and allows for better societal structures. A lot of our natural habits come from our dependency on societal groupings.
@Qwerty14
[quote]It was never acceptable.[/quote]
...how do you figure? It was practiced by patriarchs like Solomon and David, you know, the [i]best [/i]ones. And they lost favour as a result of completely different things, not for having many wives.
I don't recall it ever being spoken against in the bible. Can you direct me to the passage you're thinking of which condemns it?
I agree that at least in later Christian times it was no longer in favour...which is the point of the question lol.
[quote]It was never acceptable.[/quote]
...how do you figure? It was practiced by patriarchs like Solomon and David, you know, the [i]best [/i]ones. And they lost favour as a result of completely different things, not for having many wives.
I don't recall it ever being spoken against in the bible. Can you direct me to the passage you're thinking of which condemns it?
I agree that at least in later Christian times it was no longer in favour...which is the point of the question lol.
@Qwerty14
[quote]King David/Solomon was like 1000 years before Christianity
[/quote]
lol my dude. I know...hence the question [i]when[/i] and [i]why[/i] did it change?
And if you're asking here the NT speaks out against polygamy i'm guessing that means you can't quote a passage which prohibits it...which brings us again to [i]why[/i] it is now frowned upon by most Christians today...
[quote]King David/Solomon was like 1000 years before Christianity
[/quote]
lol my dude. I know...hence the question [i]when[/i] and [i]why[/i] did it change?
And if you're asking here the NT speaks out against polygamy i'm guessing that means you can't quote a passage which prohibits it...which brings us again to [i]why[/i] it is now frowned upon by most Christians today...
@Qwerty14
[quote]you're conflating the Jewish culture with Christianity.[/quote]
I don't think so. I mean, the OT is part of the Christian Bible, is it not?
Christians still think David and Solomon were pretty rad, don't they? I guess it's not the same culture but it's shared scripture....so when and why, you dig?
[quote]1 Corinthians 7[/quote]
lol That's Paul, right? Dude has problems.
But i didn't see anything in there prohibiting having multiple wives...just Paul thinking no one should have sex at all but if they MUST have sex in order to avoid adultery then that is acceptable.
What specifically were you pointing me to there?
[quote]you're conflating the Jewish culture with Christianity.[/quote]
I don't think so. I mean, the OT is part of the Christian Bible, is it not?
Christians still think David and Solomon were pretty rad, don't they? I guess it's not the same culture but it's shared scripture....so when and why, you dig?
[quote]1 Corinthians 7[/quote]
lol That's Paul, right? Dude has problems.
But i didn't see anything in there prohibiting having multiple wives...just Paul thinking no one should have sex at all but if they MUST have sex in order to avoid adultery then that is acceptable.
What specifically were you pointing me to there?
@Pikachu Lol it's been a while since we conversed so I forgot you don't actually know what Christians believe. No, most Christians don't give two shits about the old kings of Israel. Saul was corrupt, David was a murderer and adulterer and Solomon; well he let Jerusalem fall. All the Kings were crap. That's one of the reasons Samuel warned the Israelites not to have a king.
Say what you will about Paul, he was right about a lot of things and Christians take his words very seriously. The man wrote like half of the NT. And in Corinthians he talks about each man his own wife and each woman her own husband.
[quote]Ephesians 5:33: let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.[/quote]
[quote]Hebrews 3:14 Let marriage be held in honour among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.[/quote]
There are so many quotes from the NT that talk about each man and each wife and the sanctity of marriage.
Say what you will about Paul, he was right about a lot of things and Christians take his words very seriously. The man wrote like half of the NT. And in Corinthians he talks about each man his own wife and each woman her own husband.
[quote]Ephesians 5:33: let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.[/quote]
[quote]Hebrews 3:14 Let marriage be held in honour among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.[/quote]
There are so many quotes from the NT that talk about each man and each wife and the sanctity of marriage.
@Qwerty14
Meh. Whether you think Christians like the old kings or not is sort of irrelevant. God seemed to like them well enough (that is to say he loved them) and it was for reasons other than multiple wives that they lost favour so that didn't seem to be a problem to the big guy.
So [i]when and why[/i] did that become prohibited?
You can just say you don't have an answer to that. It's fine. It was just a question. I'm not demanding that you be able to give an answer lol.
There are indeed many passages about the sanctity of marriage...but you appear to be struggling to find any that declare that it must only be between one man and one woman.
So...are there any?
Seems we're still left with the original question then.
Sure, Christians these days generally think polygamy is no bueno...but why?
Meh. Whether you think Christians like the old kings or not is sort of irrelevant. God seemed to like them well enough (that is to say he loved them) and it was for reasons other than multiple wives that they lost favour so that didn't seem to be a problem to the big guy.
So [i]when and why[/i] did that become prohibited?
You can just say you don't have an answer to that. It's fine. It was just a question. I'm not demanding that you be able to give an answer lol.
There are indeed many passages about the sanctity of marriage...but you appear to be struggling to find any that declare that it must only be between one man and one woman.
So...are there any?
Seems we're still left with the original question then.
Sure, Christians these days generally think polygamy is no bueno...but why?
@Pikachu I've given my answer. You just don't wanna accept it. I googled the official Jewish rabbinic belief on polygamy and they adhere to the fact that polygamy has NEVER been the norm. Only if there are those loopholes or if the person was a leader (that would include your Kings of Israel). And even then, religious officials usually condemned leaders for being polygamists. We know John the Baptist condemned Herod for these such actions and that was during Christ's lifetime. So it's clear that the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus did not approve of it.
Now you say "where are the quotes?" But I gave you one.
[quote]1 Corinthians 7:2 each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband[/quote]
His own wife and her own husband. No sharing there. Each his or her own. And if you want proof that the loopholes like leaving your wife aren't kosher either:
[quote]Luke 16:18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.[/quote]
[quote]Matthew 19:3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”[/quote]
Notice how he said 2 become 1 and they don't separate. It doesn't say a man and his many wives.
Now you say "where are the quotes?" But I gave you one.
[quote]1 Corinthians 7:2 each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband[/quote]
His own wife and her own husband. No sharing there. Each his or her own. And if you want proof that the loopholes like leaving your wife aren't kosher either:
[quote]Luke 16:18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.[/quote]
[quote]Matthew 19:3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”[/quote]
Notice how he said 2 become 1 and they don't separate. It doesn't say a man and his many wives.
@Qwerty14
...you keep saying "norm" as if i've been arguing that it was the norm instead of just acceptable.
Is that intentional or an oversight?
I can totally see where you're coming from that two become one...but those passages say nothing against a man becoming one with several legitimate wives.
So we know that it was done, we know that it was done by men who were considered blessed by god (even if it wasn't the [i]norm [/i]lol) and even if it [i]is[/i] considered a no, no in the NT... the question remains, when and why did that change? Or at least why lol.
You have given your answer...i just don't think you've given a relevant one.
If we've reached an impasse then no big deal. It's fine to disagree.
Did you have anything else you'd like to add or should we end it here?
...you keep saying "norm" as if i've been arguing that it was the norm instead of just acceptable.
Is that intentional or an oversight?
I can totally see where you're coming from that two become one...but those passages say nothing against a man becoming one with several legitimate wives.
So we know that it was done, we know that it was done by men who were considered blessed by god (even if it wasn't the [i]norm [/i]lol) and even if it [i]is[/i] considered a no, no in the NT... the question remains, when and why did that change? Or at least why lol.
You have given your answer...i just don't think you've given a relevant one.
If we've reached an impasse then no big deal. It's fine to disagree.
Did you have anything else you'd like to add or should we end it here?
@Pikachu I dont think polygamy is unacceptable in today's world. It's just not considered the norm. Same with back then.
You say the passages don't specifically condemn polygamy in those exact words, but they do condemn it with other words. As far as people like Jesus and John the Baptist were concerned, you married once. They clearly preached in favour of monogamy and everything else was adultery.
You want a specific time? If there was a shift and not just a continuation of the norm (as I believe it is), it's probably when most of the major changes to the Jewish faith happened. Once Jerusalem fell the first time, Jews went through lots of changes and many hardships. They became a lot more conservative and so that's your best bet for a change. Either way, polygamy has NEVER been officially accepted in Christianity.
You say the passages don't specifically condemn polygamy in those exact words, but they do condemn it with other words. As far as people like Jesus and John the Baptist were concerned, you married once. They clearly preached in favour of monogamy and everything else was adultery.
You want a specific time? If there was a shift and not just a continuation of the norm (as I believe it is), it's probably when most of the major changes to the Jewish faith happened. Once Jerusalem fell the first time, Jews went through lots of changes and many hardships. They became a lot more conservative and so that's your best bet for a change. Either way, polygamy has NEVER been officially accepted in Christianity.
@Qwerty14
[quote] I dont think polygamy is unacceptable in today's world[/quote]
Hmmm i think most Christians would disagree with you though.
[quote]but they do condemn it with other words[/quote]
Not really. I get where you're coming from. You can justifiably interpret them that way...but imo you can also justifiably interpret them as rules for what happens between a husband and a wife whether he has one wife or a dozen.
I guess the problem i tend to run into is that when i look at the bible i look at the [i]whole[/i] bible with the idea that god is unchanging (and i think most Jews and Christians would agree with me there) so what he thought was cool back then should presumably still be cool today.
[quote] I dont think polygamy is unacceptable in today's world[/quote]
Hmmm i think most Christians would disagree with you though.
[quote]but they do condemn it with other words[/quote]
Not really. I get where you're coming from. You can justifiably interpret them that way...but imo you can also justifiably interpret them as rules for what happens between a husband and a wife whether he has one wife or a dozen.
I guess the problem i tend to run into is that when i look at the bible i look at the [i]whole[/i] bible with the idea that god is unchanging (and i think most Jews and Christians would agree with me there) so what he thought was cool back then should presumably still be cool today.
@Pikachu Oh definitely not. The whole point of Christianity is things change. If you think religion is static then you can't possibly understand Christianity.
As for you saying the rules could apply to many wives... Only if the husband never has sex with any of them. That's the problem. He can't sleep with another woman because he'd be an adulterer. And if he never consummates the marriage then they're never really married as he is no longer fulfilling his husbandly duty.
[quote]1 Corinthians 7:3-5 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other[/quote]
As for you saying the rules could apply to many wives... Only if the husband never has sex with any of them. That's the problem. He can't sleep with another woman because he'd be an adulterer. And if he never consummates the marriage then they're never really married as he is no longer fulfilling his husbandly duty.
[quote]1 Corinthians 7:3-5 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other[/quote]
@Qwerty14
[quote]. If you think religion is static then you can't possibly understand Christianity.
[/quote]
I don't think that. I think that god is meant to be unchanging according to the Christian faith. Do Christians think that god is different now than he used to be?
[quote] He can't sleep with another woman because he'd be an adulterer.[/quote]
I don't think you've actually managed to make that case though. There are rules for what is adultery and having more than one wife isn't part of the rules.
Remember, David had many wives and it was a [i]distinct[/i] act of [i]adultery [/i]which caused him to lose favour.
All Corinthians is saying there is a description of the relationship between a man and wife. Doesn't seem to say anything about a man having more than one wife being wrong?
[quote]. If you think religion is static then you can't possibly understand Christianity.
[/quote]
I don't think that. I think that god is meant to be unchanging according to the Christian faith. Do Christians think that god is different now than he used to be?
[quote] He can't sleep with another woman because he'd be an adulterer.[/quote]
I don't think you've actually managed to make that case though. There are rules for what is adultery and having more than one wife isn't part of the rules.
Remember, David had many wives and it was a [i]distinct[/i] act of [i]adultery [/i]which caused him to lose favour.
All Corinthians is saying there is a description of the relationship between a man and wife. Doesn't seem to say anything about a man having more than one wife being wrong?
@Pikachu It depends what you mean by unchanging and different. He's the same god throughout but you can't say he acts the same or even suggests the same rules throughout. Of course this could be because of the human element. Gods words are only as good as the vessel who delivers them. In the OT especially this can be a problem as none of the original written texts from the ancient times survived the destruction of the temple. It was through diligent oral tellings and hardy work ethic to write them down over and over that kept the OT alive. But it would have also caused potential inaccuracies. That's why it's important for Christians to always refer to the NT when talking about things. Jesus was the best interpretation of God's word. What he says trumps all else in the eyes of a Christian.
Anyway, back to the topic. I don't think this is up for interpretation to any Christians. When you add what Jesus said about a man and a woman becoming one and that lusting after another woman is a sin, with what Paul said about each man his own woman and each woman her own man, it's pretty clear that marriage is a 2 person thing. Throw in the fact that it specifically says a woman can't live with another man who isn't her husband for it's a sin, a passage clearly forbidding polyandrous polygamy. And top it off with John the Baptist clearly condemning King Herod for his polygamous ways. It all paints a pretty clear image that polygamy isn't acceptable.
Anyway, back to the topic. I don't think this is up for interpretation to any Christians. When you add what Jesus said about a man and a woman becoming one and that lusting after another woman is a sin, with what Paul said about each man his own woman and each woman her own man, it's pretty clear that marriage is a 2 person thing. Throw in the fact that it specifically says a woman can't live with another man who isn't her husband for it's a sin, a passage clearly forbidding polyandrous polygamy. And top it off with John the Baptist clearly condemning King Herod for his polygamous ways. It all paints a pretty clear image that polygamy isn't acceptable.
@Qwerty14
Yeah it's pretty easy to interpret it that way which is i assume why many Christians do so. Definitely a valid perspective. But i guess if there was [i]no[/i] room for interpretation then there wouldn't be Christians who do think it's ok. Because there are those.
Anyway, i'm about burned out on this one now lol
Thanks for the discussion🙂
Yeah it's pretty easy to interpret it that way which is i assume why many Christians do so. Definitely a valid perspective. But i guess if there was [i]no[/i] room for interpretation then there wouldn't be Christians who do think it's ok. Because there are those.
Anyway, i'm about burned out on this one now lol
Thanks for the discussion🙂
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