Let's not get bogged down in semantics. The question is why, if god wants to save us does he not let as many people as possible know that he is real so that they have a chance to accept him.
If you feel the answer is obvious then please share it.
@Pikachu Like maybe if he spent the better part of a millennium inspiring humans to write about him? And then he created a human form of himself to prove those writings? Inspiring the majority of the world to believe in him.
Uh...the majority of the world does not believe in Jesus...
Never mind that.
[b]No, not like that at all because evidently that has resulted in billions of people not believing in him and therefore not being saved.[/b] Are you suggesting that the best an omnipotent god could do to get people to believe was to get a bunch of mythology written down? If his desire was to save as many of us as possible, you contend that inspiring an anthology that even the people who believe it can't agree on was the best he could do?
@Pikachu 2.3B Christians + 1.9B Muslims = 4.2B total. World population is 7.58B according to Google so you're wrong. The majority do believe in God and Jesus (yes Muslims believe in Jesus too). You might not agree with the methods but you can't argue with the results
SW-User
@Qwerty14 Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They don’t believe in his divinity. So what does “believe in Jesus” mean here?
No, no no. We're talking about [i]Christians [/i]and you acknowledged that when you said god manifested himself as a man.
Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus existed. So do Jews. They do NOT believe that he was god or the son of god. lol come on, you had to know that i wasn't going to let such obvious sophistry go unchallenged. So no, the majority of the world does not believe in Jesus.
Which brings us back to a point you still need to address:
[i]No, not like that at all because evidently that has resulted in billions of people not believing in him and therefore not being saved. Are you suggesting that the best an omnipotent god could do to get people to believe was to get a bunch of mythology written down.
@Pikachu You can't deny that the majority of the world believes in God. The Abrahamic God. The God of the Jews. It's all the same God. If you can't accept that then you suffer a bias that's blinding you to the facts.
Also saying "Jews believe Jesus existed" is the same as everyone knowing he existed. Only idiots deny the man existed. But Christians and Muslims both see him as a prophet whereas Jews don't. I will also point out not all Christians believe Jesus was literally God. That isn't needed for someone to be Christian.
So again I reiterate, the majority of humans believe in God. He did a good job when you think about it
We're talking about Christians: People who believe that You [i]must[/i] believe that Jesus was god/son of god and died for your sins in order to achieve salvation. You're trying [i]so hard[/i] to move the goalposts but i simply won't allow it.
If god sought to save us, then why did he not do so in a way that [i]wouldn't[/i] result in billions not being saved?
According to the Christians, are the Jews and Muslims going to be saved? No? Then that would be a pretty bad job. Are there billions more who don't believe in any from of the god of Abraham? Yes> Then that would be a pretty bad job.
So then let's get back to the problem you seem so eager to avoid:
[i]No, not like that at all because evidently that has resulted in billions of people not believing in him and therefore not being saved. Are you suggesting that the best an omnipotent god could do to get people to believe was to get a bunch of mythology written down.
[quote]We're talking about Christians: People who believe that You must believe that Jesus was god/son of god and died for your sins in order to achieve salvation.[/quote]
No, Christians are those who believe in the teachings of Jesus. Nothing else is mandatory to be a Christian.
[quote]You're trying so hard to move the goalposts but i simply won't allow it.[/quote]
No, I'm defining what a Christian is as you have no clue.
[quote]If god sought to save us, then why did he not do so in a way that wouldn't result in billions not being saved?[/quote]
Billions will be saved. In fact, even if you thought only Christians would be saved that's still 2.3B people.
[quote]According to the Christians, are the Jews and Muslims going to be saved? No?[/quote]
Actually it clearly states you don't have to be a specific religion to be saved. Jew and gentile alike can find salvation.
[quote]Are there billions more who don't believe in any from of the god of Abraham?[/quote]
Yes the minority of people don't believe in the Abrahamic God. But as I stated before, as long as they lead a good life they'll be fine. You wrongly make an assumption God must be believed in to be saved. But if you follow his teachings unaware of them you still get saved. What did you think Paul was on about in the New Testament exactly haha
[quote]who believe in the teachings of Jesus[/quote]
For example:
[b][i]"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."[/i][/b]
lol sorry bud. Your pedantry will get you nowhere. From a Christian perspective, you need to accept Jesus as god/son of god to be your saviour [i]and that excludes most of the world.[/i]
[quote]Billions will be saved[/quote]
And billions more will not be.
[quote] Jew and gentile alike can find salvation.[/quote]
Quote the scripture. How do they achieve that? Is it per chance by accepting and confessing Jesus?🤔
[quote] But as I stated before, as long as they lead a good life they'll be fine[/quote] Maybe that's the same point you were making above. Can you provide scriptural evidence to that effect?
As for the rest, i'ma have to call that strike three since you refuse to make a case that leaving millions or billions of people out of salvation was the best an omnipotent god could do....
@Pikachu Lol strike 3? Was strike 1 showing your choice of words was dumb, strike 2 explaining to you what a Christian is and strike 3 showing you that most people believe in the Abrahamic God?
Remember, all you've done is ask "why not everyone though?" and that's the dumbest rebut to billions saved one could ask. You gotta choose the path, it can't be forced. That alone will mean some don't make the cut
SW-User
@Qwerty14 God and Jesus are one and the same for Christians. That was the outcome of the debates of the first few centuries of Christianity.
I don't really have a dog in this fight. My beliefs are along the lines of the universalist who believes that all religions are attempts at understanding the creator and that there's no single "correct religion" that everyone needs to follow. So of course I find your view more appealing then the view of "everyone who doesn't believe in strict Christian doctrine will burn for all eternity". But I think this more inclusive view is certainly not held by the majority of Christians or Muslims.
If we're talking about salvation as described in the Bible and as believed in by Christians, then yes, one needs to accept Jesus as their personal savior to be saved. That is something Muslims and Jews and other non-Christians do not do.
Yes. Because i kept asking you the question and you kept ignoring it.
[quote]Remember, all you've done is ask "why not everyone though?" [/quote]
Why do you insist on being so dishonest? No, i've asked WHY SO MANY? Why are so man millions and billions of people being left to damnation if indeed god wants to save humans?
[quote]You gotta choose the path, it can't be forced.[/quote]
This echos the "free will" argument which of course fails to recognize the fact that i can believe in god and from there choose not to love him just as Satan did.
And i notice you declined to produce scriptural support for the claims you made regarding salvation. Do so now.
Strike one.
SW-User
@Pikachu [quote] Why are so man millions and billions of people being left to damnation if indeed god wants to save humans? [/quote]
lol well don't praise me for it. It's an obvious answer. Now we need to go deeper. Are you going to stop there? Are you going to sit back and suppose that people who do not believe that god exists simply never looked for him?
SW-User
@Pikachu [quote] Now we need to go deeper. [/quote] No need. Theres nothing deep about it. Why do you look for water in the first place? Why not just live on cola and alcohol?
