"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"Phil 4:13 [Spirituality & Religion]

@Harriet03 It would be quite ironic for God to have an anti-slave cause. A bit like the rule that murder is wrong.

@Harriet03 The USA condoned slavery too, and it was common in those days. God wants us to love people. Jesus frees us from slavery. That is the message of the Bible. We are slaves to sin!

@Carazaa Now we seem to be argueing that "God" evolves with time... like society and cultural norms evolve with time. Also meaning that "Gods'" commandments are not set in stone, and that they evolve trough time... which by extend could be used for the argument that "God" is just the personification of cultural norms. A bit like santa, when certain things in society are perceived good, Santa rewards you. But when things are bad, Santa doesn't reward you... of course behind every good santa there is a system of grown ups learning you what the norms of society are in that particulair place and time.

A bit like when I said: "You dirty Homo" , Santa would still bring me presents. Cause in the 80s, Homo's weren't really that great in rural areas like the one where I grow up. But today, if my kid express "dirty homo", santa is going to whoop it's arse.

@Carazaa The USA used the bible to justify slavery hun!

@Harriet03 I am not so sure about that. Like I said it was common back then. But God told us to love people, and treat others the way we want to be treated. He was angry with His people for not following the 10 commandments.

@Carazaa He had a strange way of showing his love. If you think he's a God of love, you are not very familiar with his work!!

@Harriet03 @Kwek00 @Carazaa How else could it be proved?

Most nations still favor Israel whether it is right or wrong on any issue. If it was any other religion, the people who crucified their prophet would have been crucified one by one. But all the Christians are still very friendly towards the Jews in general like nothing had ever happened.
They are so less in numbers. They could all have been made slaves. But the Christians were compassionate since the beginning I guess.

The slavery system was started by a few people and it became a trend but it came to an end too.

And at present, no one is a slave in general.

@TheOrionbeltseeker You seem to be really conflicted about things. But at least you found your words back! The Israel remark came a little bit from out of the blue tough.

When I was talking about slavery, I was pointing at the narrative that you can find with radical religious people. The narrative where the lord is right, you have to obey, you have to worship, things have to be as commanded, and you are not allowed to have a discussion about this because the lord commanded it too. And if you don't agree, you will be punished for all eternity (like in a tyranical way, where power flows from the fear of severe punishment)

@Kwek00 Well, like you said, I have doubts in my mind too but I believe that being a better human might not let you lose something, if not let you gain. So what I do in my life is I try to be a good person. I ask questions to my conscience and if it says yes, then I go ahead, if it says no, then I retreat. I don't move forward. I guess that is what Christianity is for me atleast. The voice of conscience is the voice of Christ for me.

@TheOrionbeltseeker Hasn't your conscience been molded in a cultural sphere? Most values that people have seem to be inherrited from the cultural place and time where you grew up. If you agree with that, then it's pretty strange to call your consciouss Christ. Because if you start doing that, then Christ is pretty conflicted if you look at every conscious entity that is out there.

But like in war-time, people that are religious always think that God is on their side. And that their conscioussness is telling them that they are fighting the good cause. But since both sides believe that God is on their side, if this were trully the truth... then God is sending out more mixed message then a girl in an identity crisis during puberty.

@Kwek00 No need for the last sentence!!!!!!!!!!

@Harriet03 🤷‍♂️

@Kwek00 what is your take on it in case you are very clear in your mind?

@Kwek00 Many are saved out of love and not fear!!

@TheOrionbeltseeker I think your thoughts are (mostly) a product of the information you accumulate in your life time. That means that you, as an individual, is heavily dependent on the place and time you grow up in and what kind of other media outlets you consume. (that's how I think people form their identity and ideas and conform to norms and values that surround them)

The "mostly" part has more to do with the capacity your brain has. I think that is biologically determined. Not everyone has the same capacity I think. Some people have more capacity to work with the data they accumulate then others. You can learn yourself to work with data tough, but the capacity you as a person have still lets you run into limits.

but this is not science, just my opinion.

@Silverwings
[quote]Many are saved out of love and not fear!![/quote]

Can you give a clear cut example of how I have to see that sentence in action?

@Kwek00 do you see anything right in murder?

@Silverwings No... I don't. I still value murder pretty low. I'm not an absolutist though, I think there are moments in time where "murder" can be justifiable, as I don't agree to be slaughtered as a lamb by those that threaten my own excistence. But every case has to be looked at seperatly and discussed seperatly. But the overarching idea is still that "murder" is not "good" or shouldn't be the norm.

Why do you ask?

@Kwek00

I just read your passage again and my conscience is not molded. My conscience is very independent.

It's a vast topic on which there is no proof so you can say whatever you want but I would like to share a story of Issac Newton which you might have read.

It is of the time when Issac Newton was on his research about the planetary system. He always argued with his friends that God is there.

So, a nice morning, he invites his friends for the dinner sometime in the evening. They all gather and while the dinner was being prepared, they enter a room in which a model of the solar system was kept.

His friends ask "you did this"
Newton replies "No, I did not must have been by chance"
His friends said "It is your home, how is it not made by you and how it can be created by chance"

Newton replies "This is just a model, if the real universe can be created by chance, all the planets revolving around each other with a very unique speed, in a very unique way so that they don't collide.
Then why not this model can be created by chance?"

Friends understood what Sir Issac Newton wanted to make them understand.

@Kwek00 Because of your statement ; A bit like the rule that murder is wrong.

@Kwek00 Not quiet sure how to answer that question?

@Silverwings You probably didn't get the word "irony" in that part of my story?

How can you set a rule that "murder is wrong", and pretty much have the one that is settin the rule (God) who kills through the entire story arc. It's like saying to your kids that stealing is wrong, just before you leave the house to break in to some mansion so that the kids can go to college. How consistent is the lawmaker in that story.

Even in the new testament, where you have the 4 evangelist storylines... Jezus (and by extension God) stops people from killing. Because murder is wrong. Think about the story where he stops one of his disciples to kill a roman that was going to detain him (even when the roman lost an ear).

But once Jezus went back to Heaven (to take his rightfull place) in the next story arc a merchant and his wife sin against the lord. And BAM they are both struck and fall death to the ground. Like... How can you have an authority figure that doesn't lead by example? How hypocritical is this?

@Silverwings You claim that manny are saved by love and not by fear...

I'm asking you to provide a clear cut example of that principle. Since manny do this, it must be really easy for you to name at least one example on how this principle functions according to you.

@Kwek00 You seem to know a lot about the bible, did you ever believe in
God?

@Kwek00 Fear had absolutely nothing to do with me coming to the Lord, and I have read many testimonies where the people say the same thing.