In early 2020, democracy fell off a cliff edge.

@ArishMell New to our species? You can't be serious! Corona viruses have been around forever!

The only "new" thing about this one was the wilfully destructive "gain of function" (euphemism for "ability to be used for bioterrorism").

@ArishMell You, sir, will kindly reign in your accusations re my person. How dare you say that suffering does not matter to me? Do you know me?

You are fixated, purely and simply, on the millions, nay billions, of deaths that Professor Pantsdown Ferguson forecasted with his seriously flawed and repetitively inaccurate modellings.

Fixated, fearing death, the death that awaits all of us.

Fixated also, on the belief that your government respects you and seeks your welfare. Unable to believe that money buys power, that the rich can unite, and that they can move mountains with their money and greed, to the detriment of all, except them.

@WalterF Corona virii yes; including Influenza and the Common Cold.

Covid-SARS_19 is not the Cold or Influenza. It may in time settle to acting epidemiologically more like 'flu - which does kill people - but it did not start like that because it was new to us.

Your strange political allegation is not even logical because it demands impossibilities, and comes with no real evidence anyway - just sage noddings of heads from fellow pro-pandemicists on t'Net.

You still do not care about the effects of the disease itself on people, of the suffering and deaths it causes, do you? That's clear from your campaigning against any and all attempts to control it. All that matters is your political fantasy.

@WalterF I accuse you thus purely on what you write. You try to twist the whole thing to fit a strange para-political attack on the UN, you bitterly attack all attempts to defend against pandemics; and you offer no possible alternative ways.

I am not saying all those attempts were necessarily right - indeed we must learn which were right and which were wrong, to fight against future pandemics. Hence the Public Inquiry that has just started in Britain - and presumably similar ones in other countries. The overall learning and help has to be international because biology does not know frontiers; but you shout only contempt of the international organisations vital to such co-operation.

So do you oppose the co-operation itself? Do you not want countries to help each other fight fast-moving diseases and other threats common to all?

Yes, you may care - but you don't show it!

@ArishMell What utter tripe. Covid was much less deadly than seasonal flu. Virtually no one died from it and had the medical industry followed best practice it is likely that the death would have been even less deadly. The facts are that because the virus was so benign the government who was hoping for a mass die off of humanity pushed the deadly vax.

@hippyjoe1955 Virtually no-one died from Covid... Oh, come on!

Its mortality may be similar to that of Influenza, but annual vaccinations against the latter have greatly reduced the incidence of that disease anyway. Or are those vaccinations wrong too?

There is no "long flu" either, unlike the strange, debilitating long-term effects suffered by many who caught Covid.

Your last sentence though is no more than a naked accusation of intended mass-murder, a wilful act. It is though really so absurd, illogical and offensive it is hard to understand why you make it (or spread it if you did not invent it) and want everyone to believe it.

@ArishMell The folks that died from "covid" died from medical malpractice not the disease. You really are deluded on these things because yes it was planned and executed with military precision. That you ignore this does not speak well of you and your understanding of how a mild cold became a 'mass killer' from which no one died. However the prevention killed more people than the disease. Not to mention the many ill effects from the vax. Apart from the 5 people I know who died from the vax my daughter lost feeling in her feet after the vax. Healthy young woman can't feel her feet. My son was rushed to the hospital the night after he got his vax. He thought it was a heart attack the Drs determined it was vax induced myocarditis. Formerly healthy young man now lives with a pain in his chest. My second son woke up after his vax and couldn't move his head. The lymph nodes in his neck became very enlarged. Fortunately for him he recovered.

@hippyjoe1955 Yes, there were serious side-effects from some vaccines or batches of them, including tragically a few deaths in a small proportion of those vaccinated, and such hazards are common to most medicines. I don't wish to demean them - each is a tragedy - but far more have been vaccinated and either escaped Covid or had only a very mild attack, than have suffered harm from the vaccine. If that were not so we'd still be picking up the bodies.

If there were more vaccine-effect deaths than Covid ones that is because people were being vaccinated in large enough numbers along with taking other precautions, at least in developed countries like ours, to overtake the disease's spread.


You know perfectly well that Covid_SARS_19 is only related to, but is NOT an ordinary cold, or even a strain of Influenza.

While your idea that it and the vaccines were invented by your or any Government as a binary mass-killing policy for no conceivable purpose or advantage, is not only plain foolish, but extremely nasty and frankly unworthy of you.

In any case, even if some wildly horrible, dystopian fantasy Government really did want to kill as many of its populace as possible by disease, it only needs lets such diseases go free with no vaccines and no mechanical precautions against them. Then, many more would die directly from the new illnesses while yet more would succumb to some other pathogen or existing illness taking advantage of their weakened state - as happened to my friend.

Maybe you'd prefer that so you can say "told you so"? If you survive, of course.

@ArishMell you are correct covid is Avery mild cold that many people didn't even know they had it. Sadly the Vax makes it worse and does not prevent it

@hippyjoe1955 [quote]you are correct covid is a very mild cold [/quote]

[b]I did [i][u]NOT [/u][/i]say that at all![/b]

[b]You[/b] keep claiming that.

Some people do shake it off as if little more than a bad cold or more like a mild 'flu, especially if having been vaccinated. Vaccination does not necessarily prevent infection, but it makes the infection far safer, milder and easier to fight off. This has happened to a few people I know.

Others, infected before being vaccinated early in the virus' world tour, have been made very ill, needing hospital treatment including artificial ventilation. One of the fears early in the pandemic was whether hospitals could cope, including having enough ventilators

Quite a number who were fairly seriously ill from it, continue to suffer strange, debilitating symptoms often call "Long Covid".

Still others have DIED either from the disease directly, or because they were already ill and the Covid virus was too much for them. Early in the pandemic, the authorities in many countries were hastily preparing plans for all sorts of improvised mortuary cold-stores, and I expect you saw the News photographs of all those outdoor cremations of Covid victims in India.

You know all that but want to deny it, for whatever is your reason.

@ArishMell statists don't lie. There was no increase in unexpected deaths until the vaxes were introduced.

@hippyjoe1955 I have no idea whom you mean by "satanists" - this is no place for 16C superstition.

Define "unexpected deaths" - there were none prior to Covid_SARS_19, which soon proved itself often fatal and even more often nearly so.

Tell us - are you as vehemently against vaccinations for all diseases, such as for example Poliomyelitis? For like Covid_SARS_19, it is not necessarily fatal, and a few victims even manage to shake it off with little harm. Usually though, it cripples its victims.

@ArishMell Did you listen to the debate in the British house of commons the other day? If you want you can look up fellow Brit and former pro vaxer John Campbell on the internet. He has multiple videos that you can watch and learn from. He went from very pro vax to 'quite cross' that he had been lied to. He is vaxed as well. He is also a doctor of nursing.

@hippyjoe1955 I didn't, no.

I know there have been worries about the safety of some types of vaccine, and if they have caused their own deaths it is very right and proper they are investigated thoroughly, but that is not a reason for just giving up on them entirely.

Nor is it any justification for your strange mass-murder accusation (nor come to that, using the disease as the OP does, to campaign against the UN).

@ArishMell Lots of vaxes have been dropped soon after their introduction because of ill effects. For some strange reasons these vaxes despite huge numbers of deaths and injuries are still being pushed. No one can understand why since it is well known that the vaxes are much more deadly than the disease. How bad are the vaxes? They are so bad they had to change the definition of the word vaccine! Used to be they were to prevent, Now they simply lessen the symptoms. Can anyone tell me how you define lessened symptoms? Honest question. I saw a major study in a medical journal a number of years ago regarding the annual flu shot. The study determined that there was no evidence showing the shots actually worked. The meta analysis simply showed that there was no reduction in the number of cases of flu or the number of severe cases or the number of flu caused deaths. Hmmmm Yet they still are pushed by the medical establishment. Wow. So much for 'science based medicine'. Now if they are willing to continue to push a useless flu vax should it surprise anyone when they push the covid vax that the vax does not work? Doesn't surprise me at all. Kind of what I suspected in fact after getting my mother in law flu vaxed for 10 years and she still got the flu every year.

@hippyjoe1955 I doubt the medical profession or manufacturers has ever claimed full "prevention" for all vaccines - that seems more Press Statement than serious science - but they certainly prevent vast swathes of the population being felled by serious attacks by the diseases. If not fatally certainly badly and perhaps with permanent harm.

Lessened symptoms... Yes, basically the effects of the disease being much less severe than if it had things all its own way. So you might have a short-term fever for a couple of days or so, but not ned up in hospital or even worse, apart from actually dying, being left with long-lasting damage like "Long Covid".

I think Polio can act like that - vaccinated, you might have a minor attack but the antibodies and fever (also part of the body's defence) will see it off and you won't be in an "iron lung" or needing crutches afterwards.

A problem with the Flu virus is, like the Cold and Covid, it can mutate easily, so perhaps it's learnt to survive most vaccines. I suspect Covid might go the same way over years, but at least it will no longer be the overall danger it really was in 2020.

'

I'm still a bit unclear of your motive. Over-fearing the vaccine's hazards I can understand, but your strange political accusation, no. The OP's is simply finding the pandemic a useful anti-UN tool!

I had my Covid booster a fortnight ago, and due my Influenza one in a couple of days' time.

@ArishMell The problem with lessened symptoms as the study pointed out is that they are impossible to quantify. Each individual will have a different reaction to each individual virus strain. You might be severely impacted by the same bug I didn't know I had. Next year the rolls might be reversed. We have no way to know how you will react. What sold me on not getting the flu jab was years ago when the flu jab was new there was a big push to get everyone jabbed. A popular radio host got the jab on air. He was convinced that the jab was the best idea since sliced bread. Strangely enough he didn't make it on air the next morning or the morning after that. In fact he missed an entire week because of his case of the flu. I never heard him speak of the flu sax again. It was almost like he lost faith in the jabs to prevent him from getting sick. Strange how that works.

@hippyjoe1955 Yes, you are right about the unquantifiable nature of disease: everyone will react individually, the exposure to the pathogen will be individual and the germ itself can alter.

The same is true of side-effects of any vaccines or any medication, except those don't change from dose to dose. I am presently having symptoms that might be (I rather hope are only) medication side-effects, though not from the assorted vaccines I've had over the last few years.

Nevertheless I go by [i]hazard [/i]and [i]risk[/i], which as you know are [i]not[/i] synonyms.

For example...

I am due a 'Flu jab tomorrow. I cannot predict any unwanted reaction to it, though I have not had any previously, but whilst the hazards might be comparable in level, driving along busy roads to the surgery carries the much higher risk.

@ArishMell Actually the human body works best with minimal intervention. The facts are that the covid vax is very deadly and has no benefit. Thus it is all cost and no benefit. According to the study I mentioned (I think it was in the Lancet) there is no indication of any benefit from the the flu jab. Not sure why anyone would get one if there is no quantifiable benefit. The same can be said of other vaccines as well. MMR is a prime example. Not too many years ago in southern Alberta there was an outbreak of measles. For some unknown reason all the infected were current with the vaccine. Hmmm About that same time there was a measles case reported in a local grocery store. Everyone was advised to avoid the store unless you were over a certain age because people of that age or older were immune via the childhood measles they had had. RFK Jr has long railed against vaccines and I always wrote him off as a crank. Especially when he mentioned autism. My father in law was autistic and 3 of my children inherited his genes. However as time has gone on I am noticing more and more children with autism or other behavioural issues. My daughter works in a day care and the number of kids she has that have some sort of behavioural issues diagnosis is amazing. I have also heard of parents telling about how their lovely well behaved will adapted child had a severe change right after they were vaxed. Hmmmm Could there be a correlation/causation thing going on here. There is certainly an indication in the statistics. So why this constant rush to vax? What do we think we are going to achieve? My own grandchildren are not vaxed by choice of their mothers and completely without my input. The moms have looked at the information available much more than I have and have decided to keep their children rafe from the many vaccines. Sometime the cure is worse than the disease. In the case of covid I am absolutely convinced that is the case. I have had my eyes opened and I do not like what I see among the vaxed. Death, injury, recurrent illness all of which are not evident among the unvaxed.

@ArishMell Here is an interesting read. https://kirschsubstack.com/p/vaccine-killed-35x-more-americans

@hippyjoe1955 It took a bit of reading because the site kept putting a subscription invitation over the text!

What it does not tell us in all those numbers:

- how many people in total were vaccinated and suffered from neither Covid (or had only a very slight infection) or the vaccine;

- how many in total were not vaccinated, how many of them survived an attack, how many did die from the disease;

- whether this is from one specific vaccine or even one batch of it; or common to all.

It is right that any unexpected deaths from any vaccine for any disease, must be investigated; but I think those statistics from one small survey are being used to present an anti-vaccination case rather than genuine safety investigation; and my point still stands that the risk of dying from the vaccine is still extremely small and probably far less than from the illness.

@ArishMell maybe you should go back and read what was written. It is impossible to say how many lives were 'saved' by the Vax. It is possible to compare the number of deaths caused by the disease and by the Vax. When your cute kills 3.5 times as many as the disease the cure is.worse than the disease.

@hippyjoe1955 Of course it's not possible to prove a negative, but that makes the number that worries you all the more unsafe. It's taken a sample that happens to give that ratio. They were probably not after that as such, but unless it's taken against entire populations who have had that particular vaccine, it does not mean much.

@ArishMell it is a very large sample. The Vax is 3.5 times more deadly than the virus. Not sure why any one wants to defend the killer.

@hippyjoe1955 Then how come the number of deaths is not so vast it is blindlngly obvious and the whole vaccination policy has not been pulled until the fault has been found?

Which vaccine anyway? There are a few types.