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Does the material world exist only to those who believe in science?

Perception is reality. We perceive with our senses, and our minds tell us what we are sensing. A bird perceives with its senses, and its mind tells it what it is sensing.

The mind retains relevant information as knowledge. The bird flies through the air but does its mind tell it that it is flying through space and the time it takes to get where it is going?

Space and time are concepts of physics. They are dimensions of a material world made up of matter, its third dimension. The three concepts of space, time, and matter are the fundamental thought patterns of physics, a branch of science invented by the human mind.

Can we conclude that the material world exists only to those believe in science?
If you dive into the definitions of the two words “perception” and “reality,” you will see that reality excludes perception. Perception: A way of understanding or interpreting things. Reality: The state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may be perceived or might be imagined.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LadyGrace
Reality: The state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may be perceived or might be imagined.

Thank you for your contribution. You made a distinction between perception and reality.

Using your viewpoint, both the physicist and the bird perceives themselves in a world. The physicist's world is a material one in which we all, who are educated in science, lives. The bird's world is perceived or imagined differently without any concepts of physics. Do you agree?
That's a big 10 thumbs down.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LadyGrace This is a discussion thread. Please say something that you perceive as true and explain why it is true.
@sree251

That's already quite obvious. Your theories don't make any sense because they're not common sense
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LadyGrace
Your theories don't make any sense because they're not common sense

You are quite right but I am not presenting any theory. I am making an argument that questions the immanence of the material world. I am asserting that it is a belief of science and exist for those accept live in that conceptual reality, a consensus worldview. Common sense is just that: common even if it is nonsensical.
robertsnj · 56-60, M
this is hard to follow. A couple things and sorry to nitpick

Nobody "believes in science" you either accept or reject the data it provides. Science is a contrsuct based on the model of

observe, question, hypothesis experiement conclude resultes---called the scientific meathod. It is constantly challenged by industry peers and updated as better data is uncovered.

in terms of your ideas on bird biology and physics I would probably bug a biologist who specializes in birds and a person with a background in physics vs being flippant with lay observations.

Neither of those examples tie into your question and your conclusion. It is just white noise in between.

However I think I know going with this and may be able to point you in a direction. The philosophical words for people who perceive reality through in idea that what we perceive in a physical sense is called

ontological naturalism it is a lot of reading but may help you get a better foothold on what your trying to ask and present.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@robertsnj
Nobody "believes in science" you either accept or reject the data it provides.

I accept the experimental data presented by Newton but I don't believe in his discovery of gravity. The belief in gravity necessitate the acceptance of matter which is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@robertsnj
in terms of your ideas on bird biology and physics I would probably bug a biologist who specializes in birds and a person with a background in physics vs being flippant with lay observations.

Is my inquiry hard to follow? I am asking very basic questions that even a high school kid can get. Grasping the fundamental concepts of physics is something else. As for the bird biologist, none has authority on what the bird knows. I am making a guess myself. My contention is that the bird uneducated in physics cannot perceive the world as we do.

You disagree?
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
The material world exists, whether you believe in it or not. this is evident in consequences. Avoiding consequences is possible sometimes, but has a cost of of its own. Like these Sovereign Citizens who say the law doesnt apply to them. The handcuffs are quite real, whether they believe in them or not..😷
sree251 · 41-45, M
@whowasthatmaskedman Ok, there you have it. You either transcend or you stay in handcuffs. And those handcuffs are pretty hard to slip out of.

We cannot think our way out of this. If we don't have skin in the game, there is no way out of the material world. The desperation, the need to break free of the handcuffs has to consume you. I wonder if you have seen the movie "The Shawshank Redemption"? The prison is the material world. All of us are like the old guy Brooks who had gotten used to and need the safety of the prison. He couldn't live without those handcuffs; and when they were taken off, he committed suicide. Unless you have a need to break out, a desperate need, you won't even go there. Then, there are those of us who have given up trying and no longer give a damn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBsaW4VyAZ8
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@sree251 You covered it well. And the answer is in the form of a metaphor. No one if getting out of this physical world alive. But like Brooks, and later Red, we can leave our mark on it to say we were here. I have my family and through my choices and efforts, their lives have been changed in a way that says "I was here". Thats better than a statue or a pyramid..😷
sree251 · 41-45, M
@whowasthatmaskedman This thread is about Andy. I am Andy. I made that hole in the wall of my prison cell a long time ago. I am no longer in the prison where you are. This is why I asked the question: Does the material world exist only to those who believe in science?

Those who believe in science live in the material world: Shawshank Prison. It's not a bad place even for the homeless, who reek of urine stench, living in tents beneath bridges in our cities. For you, it is the best place to live this side of Heaven. You don't really care about the hole in my prison cell nor have interest in knowing what the material world is made of even if you could poke a hole in the sky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0jIwJt9QwA
Dumbman · 36-40
Only I broke time space fabric with no tools
sree251 · 41-45, M
@Dumbman
To check whether God exists or not. Was mahabharatta war true?Is there a soul?

Why is there the need to break time-space fabric to check whether God exists or not? What do you mean by breaking time-space fabric?
Dumbman · 36-40
@sree251 during mahabharata war, on battlefield God said that he is parbrahm means singularity. That he has no rules, no restrictions etc. etc. [media=https://youtu.be/mPnvpRtqTT4]

In singularity all time, space mass is broken. That’s what elon musk talks about
AI reaching singularity, the smartest computer and he says it can’t be predicted what happens after that. I guess it is judgement day. [media=https://youtube.com/shorts/eSMnG6xxRSY?si=9AvRWWpgAnVBQUtQ].

That’s why I wanted to know the truth.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@Dumbman Singularity in theoretical physics describes the center of a black hole, a point of infinite density and gravity within which no object inside can ever escape, not even light. This is what mad scientists believe.

As for Elon Musk, he is talking about AI singularity. AI singularity is a hypothetical concept where artificial intelligence exceeds human intelligence. In simpler terms, if computers surpass humans' cognitive abilities, a new level of intelligence will emerge that is unachievable by people. This is also crazy talk. Computers are machines with mechanical cognitive capabilities. AI runs on logic. It cannot create or innovate something new the way we can. We are intelligent. AI can do tasks but cannot create.

Para Brahma is the highest form of God the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of all life. Religious belief is similar to speculative science unless you are the real deal and have transcended the material world.

I am not doubting you. Do you have a human body?
There might be something to that, since science is not solely dependent on reality. For instance
Science is true even if you don't believe in it.
So then there was a luminiferous ether, and then when Maxwell came along, it evaporated and electromagnetic waves took its place.
When science said the atom was a plum pudding of +ve and -ve particles, it was, but when I guess God ate the pudding and spat out the electrons, protons and neutrons just in time for Niels Bohr.
Science also said our health was governed by 4 humours, but then I guess our bodies lost their sense of humour and then germs and a bunch of other things came along.
So I guess you could will matter away; you just need the right science.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LadyGrace
Science is included in the Bible.

This is exactly what I mean: compound eyeglasses. You either serve God or the Devil, you can't serve both. When you put on compound eyeglasses, you serve the Devil. How many Christians do we have in the US Military? We even have chaplains with the rank of captain. How do they deal with "Thou shall not kill?"
@sree251

There can't be a discussion with you because you can only see things through the lens of a double minded person. On one hand you call yourself a Christian and then you deny it on another, mocking Christians. I have nothing more to say to you. You're confused.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@LadyGrace
There can't be a discussion with you because you can only see things through the lens of a double minded person. On one hand you call yourself a Christian and then you deny it on another, mocking Christians.

I don't mock Christians anymore than Jesus mocked the Jews. He came to read the law right: instead of an eye for an eye, Jesus taught them to turn the other cheek. It infuriated them because it made no sense. They saw Jesus as confused.
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sree251 · 41-45, M
@jshm2
Whether you "believe" in science or not is immaterial. You will not fly because you do or don't.

What are you saying? You obviously have gone into this in serious way. Don't keep it too yourself, whatever you have come to realize.
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sree251 · 41-45, M
@Kenworth4954 Your post is packed with insults but you don't back them up with arguments, not even one. The only statement you made to refute my premise is:

The fact is like it or not perception and reality are not the same. Reality couldn't exist if it was merely a perception.

What is your understanding or definition of reality? What is your meaning for the word "perception"? Correct me if I am wrong, I suspect you must be equating perception to impression. We all have impressions that certain politicians are honest but the reality is that they are not. This is conventional thinking.

The OP poses a philosophical question. Our arguments can get pretty rigorous. I hope you are up to it.

Can you perceive space? One time, I was at a friend's home in the country. Looking in the distance, I said to him: "I think I can hit my golf ball onto that grassy bank with my 3 iron." He chuckled and told me that the spot I was looking at was at least a quarter mile away. He was right. I was just joshing because even though it did looked close enough, I knew what the reality was. Haven't we sometimes feel that the clouds were close enough to touch? Can we see into the distance and gauge the amount of space between us and the horizon? Is there depth of field? Does the tree trunk look two dimensional till you wrap your arms around it?

I understand why you feel violated by my "joke of a post". I am questioning your sanity. Yours is the consensus worldview of reality, our material world. Our education in science has packed us with the knowledge to perceive the world. We no longer see with our senses alone. Our minds are constantly feeding information to tell us what we are seeing. We see a maple tree, the bird doesn't.

 
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