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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Honestly, for me... The story got a lot better up until 4. But I'm not sure after 4. I kinda stopped there, even though I want to read the rest. But 5-6 should also contain 7. But since Frank died, well... it never came. So I'm a bit afraid to be left hanging. But up untill 4, the story is incredible. And espescially for a person like you, with your interestes in religious people... well, Dune is just incredibly isightfull.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Well, it's a criticism on how people handle history, religion, politics, envioremental issues... and even though the writer isn't the best writer... I love the ideas that he plays with in his books. He also doesn't really take sides, which might be confusing at times. I think to understand the first book, you kinda HAVE to read "messiah" and "children of dune" annyway, since it kinda explains what the author was trying to do in his first book.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Well, I can only recommend. And I can also recommend watching "Quinns' idea" on youtube, who has a 1 hour resume on each book after you read them. And then I can recommend "Extra credits" who has a 3 chaptered youtube commentary on the first book. And I can deff recommend after reading "God Emperor of Dune" to listen too the one hour and 20 minute long interview by Willis E. McNelly on February 3, 1969 ... which can also be found on youtube.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Well, it was wildely popular long before me. It's just one of these things that I only read the first book off. I went "wow" and put it away. And I never read annything more about it. But because of COVID and all, I did some reading. Mostly commics, but the few novels I did read contained 4 Dune books. Because I kinda promised myself that I would finish them before the movie came out. And well, since I had time, I got pretty deep into it. I also read a book about the book. Called "Wisdome of the Sand". It's a pitty the Dune: Encyclopedia, is so hard to get by. Because I'm not going to pay 150+ dollar US for some soft cover that is old and in bad shape.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu I like the david lynch movie for what it is. But David Lynchs' adaptation is pretty far off from what Herbert tries to tell his audience. Lynch actually falls into the trap the author sets out for the reader... namely, he mystifies Paul and makes him into a magical being. He pretty much does it explicitly in the last scene, where Paul makes it rain and breaks stone by using his voice. As if Paul is some kind of magic. But the author actually shows the reader that Paul is not magical, and he sure as hell is no messiah. But he uses the messiah-myth that lingers in freemen society to reach for power and furfill his own goals. And he's constantly haunted by his visions, that tell him that if he does what he believes needs to be done, it will unleash destruction on the galaxy. But Paul believes constantly, he lies to himself, that he can have his cake and eat it too. But he's wrong. Just like pretty much every character in Dune is wrong. All these fantastic characters that are good in something... everyone of them fucks up and it all generates incredibly bad consequences for those that follow them.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Well, it's just one of those books, where there is actually no hero and people have these super duper skills. And they all fuck up. Everyone of them is wrong.
Duke Leto -> Believes he can survive Dune. If you know there is a trap, it's easier to avoid it.
[b]WRONG! [/b]
Tufir Hawat -> Takes the premise that Suk school programming can't be broke, because mentat training school sees this is as being rational.
[b]WRONG![/b]
Dokter Yueh -> Believes the baron and thinks he can regain his wife and kill the baron in one swoop.
[b]WRONG![/b]
Lady Jessica -> Considers herself well known to human social interactions. Believes she can interpretate and read human emotions. When Yueh was about to break out of a conflict of consciouss and tell her the entire story, she went: "it's okay baby, cry on my shoulder".
[b]WRONG![/b]
The Baron -> Believes he can become emperor because he's a genius strategist
[b]WRONG![/b]
The Emperor -> Believes he can manipulate the baron, because he's a brilliant politician
[b]WRONG![/b]
Pieter De Vries -> Believes that if you dump 2 people in the dessert, they will just die out there and never been seen again. Go go mentat training school logic! But...
[b]WRONG![/b]
The Freemen and Stilgar -> Believe in a myth that was introduced to their society by the missionairy protectiva. But they never considered it to be a tool for the Bene Gesserit protection. So they believe that the stories are true and that Paul is the Messiah!
[b]WRONG![/b]
Paul Artreides -> Believes he can control religious fanaticism to reach his own goals.
[b]WRONG![/b]
Most of the big characters! Are all fuck ups. Remember Raban? He only believed that there were a few freemen in the dessert, nothing to worry about... well, WRONG!!!! TFaith Rautha believes he is ready to rule without his dad because he looks good and thinks he's smart. Well... WRONG! ... Everyone of them is a fuck up. But people keep looking at them in aw, because for the masses, they are leader figures. They have this aura hanging around them. If you met annyone of these figures, you would probably go "wow", but you have the exceptional privelege to be a reader and figure out what is happening behind the scenes. It's a bit like the bible, except that the author left the embaressing shit that happens in the kitchen between Jozef, Mary and Jezus inside the book. On the outside, all these characters are just incredible. Super dokters, super computer brains, mega-fighters, ... etc, but since you are priveleged you can also see what fuck ups they are during the kitchen table talks.
Duke Leto -> Believes he can survive Dune. If you know there is a trap, it's easier to avoid it.
[b]WRONG! [/b]
Tufir Hawat -> Takes the premise that Suk school programming can't be broke, because mentat training school sees this is as being rational.
[b]WRONG![/b]
Dokter Yueh -> Believes the baron and thinks he can regain his wife and kill the baron in one swoop.
[b]WRONG![/b]
Lady Jessica -> Considers herself well known to human social interactions. Believes she can interpretate and read human emotions. When Yueh was about to break out of a conflict of consciouss and tell her the entire story, she went: "it's okay baby, cry on my shoulder".
[b]WRONG![/b]
The Baron -> Believes he can become emperor because he's a genius strategist
[b]WRONG![/b]
The Emperor -> Believes he can manipulate the baron, because he's a brilliant politician
[b]WRONG![/b]
Pieter De Vries -> Believes that if you dump 2 people in the dessert, they will just die out there and never been seen again. Go go mentat training school logic! But...
[b]WRONG![/b]
The Freemen and Stilgar -> Believe in a myth that was introduced to their society by the missionairy protectiva. But they never considered it to be a tool for the Bene Gesserit protection. So they believe that the stories are true and that Paul is the Messiah!
[b]WRONG![/b]
Paul Artreides -> Believes he can control religious fanaticism to reach his own goals.
[b]WRONG![/b]
Most of the big characters! Are all fuck ups. Remember Raban? He only believed that there were a few freemen in the dessert, nothing to worry about... well, WRONG!!!! TFaith Rautha believes he is ready to rule without his dad because he looks good and thinks he's smart. Well... WRONG! ... Everyone of them is a fuck up. But people keep looking at them in aw, because for the masses, they are leader figures. They have this aura hanging around them. If you met annyone of these figures, you would probably go "wow", but you have the exceptional privelege to be a reader and figure out what is happening behind the scenes. It's a bit like the bible, except that the author left the embaressing shit that happens in the kitchen between Jozef, Mary and Jezus inside the book. On the outside, all these characters are just incredible. Super dokters, super computer brains, mega-fighters, ... etc, but since you are priveleged you can also see what fuck ups they are during the kitchen table talks.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu Well, they consider themselves superhumans at times. They are just all locked on their premisses, as humans tend to be. You can't really live in uncertainty on everything and leadership means that you have to take descisions and stand by them, untill they fail and then you can reevaluate your position or double down... depending on who you are. But people look for leaders to make those descisions, however people should be able to reevaluate their position too when leadership fails and never ever follow leaders blindly because they "feel" good to them. Always be sceptical of leaders and don't blindly follow them. Or as Herbert says:
[quote][b]“The mistakes (of leaders) are amplified by the numbers who follow them without question. Charismatic leaders tend to build up followings, power structures and these power structures tend to be taken over by people who are corruptible. I don’t think that the old saw about ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’ is accurate: I think power attracts the corruptible.” [...] “I wrote the Dune Saga because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label, ‘may be dangerous to your health'”[/b]
- Frank Herbert, [i]Forword to Dune[/i][/quote]
[quote][b]“The mistakes (of leaders) are amplified by the numbers who follow them without question. Charismatic leaders tend to build up followings, power structures and these power structures tend to be taken over by people who are corruptible. I don’t think that the old saw about ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’ is accurate: I think power attracts the corruptible.” [...] “I wrote the Dune Saga because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label, ‘may be dangerous to your health'”[/b]
- Frank Herbert, [i]Forword to Dune[/i][/quote]