It doesn’t address if they got their billions ethically or not and the government doesn’t “waste” nearly as much as people act like it does. It just spends money for stuff they don’t agree with.
But when you frame it the way you expressed there there isn’t a “rebuttal” because it’s a bad faith argument
“No man in this country is under the smallest obligation, moral or other, so to arrange his legal relations to his business or to his property as to enable the Inland Revenue to put the largest possible shovel into his stores.” (Lord Clyde, Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services and Ritchie v. IRC (1929))
That's an argument made during a court case, so it's not a legal ruling, but it's an argument with which I agree (this is one of the few areas where Warren Buffett and I part company).
I view tax avoidance not as a gain but as the avoidance of a loss, and I consult very competent people to help me avoid taxes every year. After all, you put the best possible locks on your house, right?
@newjaninev2 Absolutely it's avoidance of a loss! That's precisely why rich people scramble to utilise their wealth to hide it and minimise tax exposure. Something most regular people can't do. And because of that, regular people lose more so rich people don't have to incur losses and 'gain' from regular people incuring those losses instead. Root capitalism at work.
@zonavar68 A tax official of note once said to me that both the very poor and the very wealthy paid only a small percentage of the total tax take, and that the overall tax burden fell squarely on the average joe (he was American). The impoverished do not have anything that can be assessed for taxation, and the wealthy make arrangements to appear as if they have nothing that can be assessed for taxation. Those with a spouse, 2.4 children, a mortgaged house, a median income derived from steady employment or a small business, and so forth, have nowhere to hide.
When it comes to being plucked, they offer the optimal amount of feathers for the least amount of squawking.
He also said that tax officials recognise that there are two tax rates that yield exactly the same amount: 0% and 100%
Everything between those two rates is negotiable.
_________________
Of course, while tax avoidance is legal, rather good fun, and quite satisfying, there is no way I would ever stray into the fool's game of tax evasion.
Perhaps someone should have explained the difference to Al Capone 😀
In the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger, "there's no such thing as a self-made man." All of these billionaires were born into positions of privilege, plus the system is controlled by billionaires who treat the billionaire-class like a sort of master race that must be preserved. Trump went broke several times, but the system made him rich again in the form of subsidies that he only got because he was rich at one point. So basically, if you're born into wealth, the government will make sure you stay wealthy, even if you go bankrupt over and over and over.
Also, billionaires don't work, they hire workers with the money they were born into. Elon Musk is not an engineer, he's a businessman who was (yet again) born into wealth. He then used his money to buy property and have actual engineers build his cars and rockets. In a socialist country, Musk would be voted out of power for contributing nothing positive to the companies he owns.
If they believe in capitalism remind them that it was Karl Marx, in his "vision of communism," that fully admitted that the wealthy and the elites were needed to achieve those goals for the masses. Also don't forget to remind them that "middle class" is just another term for masses. So it seems to me that we are living in a partially Marxist economic society that everyone seems to be accepting of. Corporate America (the wealthy) provide the jobs, and expand their businesses to provide more jobs. The small business owner who is reliant on American Banks (the wealthy) provide funds to the small business owner to expand and create more jobs. I know there are details that separate the two, but given America's "tradition" of taking an idea and putting an American twist on it, don't count out that we can actually have "American Marxism."
I do not think billionaires should be paying a lower tax rate than ordinary working people.
Warren Buffett and His Secretary on Their Tax Rates
Buffett's secretary since 1993, Debbie Bosanek, sat next to her boss just hours after being invited by the president to the State of the Union address, where the president made her the face of tax inequality in America.
Bosanek pays a tax rate of 35.8 percent of income, while Buffett pays a rate at 17.4 percent.
"I just feel like an average citizen. I represent the average citizen who needs a voice," said Bosanek. "Everybody in our office is paying a higher tax rate than Warren."
@ElwoodBlues Thats fair. But it gets complicated when you have multiple tax levels of state and municipal tax added on. High level consumers can pay up to 50%, and if they earn enough, thats not unreasonable.😷
@whowasthatmaskedman True, but I think the Buffet numbers and proposal refer only to federal taxes. I should have specified federal above. One of Buffet's points is that some people, when discussing federal taxes, discuss only income tax neglect FICA. FICA is insignificant for billionaires, but a significant bite out of average salaries.
@ElwoodBlues True. This is where sales/consumption taxes are useful. With exemptions for basics like food and medications. Schemes designed specifically to avoid tax really should be stamped out.. And dont get me started on crypto.. That should attract a tax coming and going... "Just Coz"😷
The wealthy billionaires usually inherited their wealth committed some atrocity to obtain it won it by lottery and invested well or someway or other cheated to get it (avoided taxes got a favorable loan bought/sold stock, etc.). If there were a flat tax on income, which almost everywhere else in the world does, the issue would be mute. Instead the billionaires aren’t paying taxes and have the money to hire accountants to ensure they never will. Government waste is minimal and would be even less plus more visible if government were properly and equally funded. Instead billionaires escaping taxation while blaming the poor. American capitalism
I doubt those billionaires are paying 30% of their revenue(s)/income
Most of them get away with not paying taxes because their money is actually tied up in assets and other *fictional* avenues. Basically, they get their assets appraised for the value, usually by an appraiser of their choice so they make the value more or less, depending on what they appraisal is for. Trump did this countless times, devaluing for taxes and over valuing for bank loans. The money however, is fictional. They don't havr a billion in the bank. To get that billion, they would have to liquidate and hope they get a good return. This is the loophole the rich get. As long as they claim the wealth of their assets, they can be as poor or rich as they want.
@AthrillatheHunt it's not fair, they are hoarding money that is earned off the backs of labour and paying a much smaller personal share than the majority of people. Its also worth noting the money they hoard is money that is veing denied from social security.
All people are valuable, not just greddy bullionaires exploiting labor. They are in fact the least valuable to society
I have no problem with rich people because they are either born into richness or earnt it. But for them to get rich, a lot of people have to loose and become poor(er).
Also rich people try to tell poor people how to live, think, and feel, and I object to that. Just look at Covid, the digital ID push, etc.
The problem with government waste is that government is run by churches and business elite, which are both by inference run by rich people who do not give a flying fuck about the lower working class peoples.
There is no such thing as 'our' money vs 'someone elses' money as money is fake and all currencies are fiat. Any 'money' we have is simply a temporary right to exchange some agreed value for a good or a service.
When you get paid $100, it isn't a loss to the company, it was a bargained-for transaction, but more importantly, if you get paid on Jan. 1, and you spend that $100 partly on housing, partly on food, partly on communication and transportation, THOSE dollars are respent by employees at THOSE companies and cycle through the economy through the whole year, creating more spending.
The devaluation to which you are referring is only if there is a fixed asset behind the currency. The problem with the US is that the ppl with money have gone along with allowing DJT to be Pres TWICE, which has destroyed our international reputation, as HE has shown EVERY nation that
"the full faith and credit of the United States"
means NOTHING, because we have shown ourselves to be faithless, and the very open financial takeover of the country by the super-rich is bankrupting us.
It doesn’t bother me unless they are doing something to get that money that will harm society and then use what they get to manipulate and harm even more. Part of the problem is the consumers that won’t stop serving them by purchasing their goods or services when they could easily forego it. They didn’t get that rich all on their own.
Many billionaires owe their extreme wealth to the accumulation of capital just as much as the creation of wealth. If you hoard a finite resource such as land or real estate someone else who could have used that resource more productively will go without and their potential will be unrealised. One individual can only spend so much money in a lifetime, so the concentration of wealth is an inefficient drag on economic growth.
Governments step in to supply markets where the private sector has failed or is too risk averse. "Government inefficiency" is more often than not an expression used by wealthy individuals who do not like to be reminded of the hardship and suffering that social and economic inequality brings.
My net worth is none of your business. I'm not rich. I work two jobs. And I'm happy with my life.
I'm sorry that you seem to be having a hard life at your age. But I was hoping that by revealing your net work that you would inspire others to follow your advice. However, since by your own statement you are not rich and have to work two jobs to survive at your age, maybe your advice is completely worthless and people would be better off listening to someone who is a llitte bit more successful than you.
Of course, since you are happy with your condition that's a very good thing but other people may find it worse than theirs. Stay happy.
Here is your rebuttal. Billionaires should pay more tax for two reasons. First, because generally they benefitted from the environment the government created to a greater extent than most. And secondly because they have so much more to protect and risk losing if it all goes away.😷
@whowasthatmaskedman You ENVY Rush. He dropped out of college, got fired from every radio job he ever held, and then created a national CONSERVATIVE radio news network that got the WHOLE COUNTY laughing at you Adolfs. By the way, BAT GUANO FOR BRAINS, Rush was quoting IRS data.
He is right and you adolfs are wrong.
And your ONLY response is to celebrate a person dying of CANCER.
@Reason10 Please note that the Facists did all those things AFTER the solidified control. You have all that to come..And you have the advantage of a dumbed down population of proles for a couple of generations now. They are a lost cause. But the smart people should get the hell out while they can. Uruguay, Belize, Mexico. Anywhere they dont have to watch US media explain all this away.😷
It doesn't upset me that anyone makes money. Even if it's way more than me. Now on the other hand the government wasting my hard earned money really upsets me! 😡😡😡
Name a legitimate business owner who stole anything.
I don't know if you would call him a legitimate business owner, but Donald Trump fraudulently obtained between $1,495 and $35,000 each from 5,000 students by pretending to run an accredited university. He had to return $25m to his victims in 2016. Which made him very sad.
I don't know any drug cartel bosses, but I suspect they are rather more honest in their business dealings than Donald Trump. If they promised to supply cocaine and instead shipped washing powder, I think the aggrieved purchaser would take more direct and violent action than seeking redress through the courts.
An extremely small one time federal wealth tax on the top 5% (graduated so the higher the wealth the higher the rate) would easily pay off the national debt and they would barely notice. However we must not allow the same sort of bozos or even worse to make decisions after that which would eventually result in the same thing. @jackjjackson
