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AshleyMom4 · 41-45, F
What a great and thoughtful overview! Thanks.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M
It's all interesting and well-researched.

Caveat: I'm British.

A few areas of disagreement.

I don't think that the 80s were a time of bipartisan consensus in America. It was on foreign policy (since the WW2). The Reagan revolution massively upended things and brought in the neoliberal era. On economics, the Democrats were divided into those who wanted to fight Reaganism and those who wanted to go along with it, with the latter winning out by the Clinton era.

The 90s were the time of least polarisation due to what I just mentioned and the end of the USSR as an existing alternative model. The time of greatest polarisation is now.

However, the polarisation is asymmetrical. The Democrats haven't moved that much in recent years. They have a radical social democratic wing but it's marginalised and they tied to the same consensus (economic and foreign policy) that both parties used to follow. They have become more liberal on social issues and Biden was a tepid step to the left but it certainly wasn't a radical change.

It's the Republicans who have radicalised and are upending the existing order.

For various reasons (some of which you mention) the far-right takeover is more advanced in America than in any other major country but you will know as well as I do that the nationalist right is rising across Europe and elsewhere.

Why?

There are lots of factors. The relative geopolitical decline of the West, internet conspiracy theories and the decline in organised labour. The slow collapse of trust in mainstream institutions and a revival in nationalist identities.

There is also the point that the neoliberal era once brought about rapid growth and increases in living standards but is no longer able to do so. Though there is still spirally wealth inequality which produces resentment. As someone who I suspect is a classical liberal, you might disagree on that point.
CedricH · 22-25, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I explicitly distanced myself from the Austrian School in my last post, maybe you overlooked that side note.

Trump talks like a populist, but he doesn't care about anyone outside his own tax bracket. It is a big club but 99.9% of Americans are not in it.
Agreed but he doesn’t just talk he also pursues explicitly populist policies, to the detriment of most Americans.

As for Biden's position on Taxes that doesn't make him much different from Reagan.
Reagan‘s entire economic platform was based on significant reductions of income, capital gains and corporate tax levels. Reducing marginal tax rates in particular and considerably lowering the highest income tax bracket.
So that was the exact opposite of Biden‘s tax plan.

Reagan also famously had contempt for "Voodoo economics"
You got that mixed up, George H. W. Bush criticized voodoo economics in his election campaign by which he was referring to the supposition that tax cuts will lead to more government revenue than was lost by the tax cuts. That’s mathematically and economically false but it was argued by some at the time and Bush (who raised taxes to reduce the fiscal deficit) countered their narrative.

And as for crypto. Something that is 99% fraud is not an industry.

I‘m not a crypto expert and I‘m a bit skeptical myself but that statement seems like a hyperbole to make your point.

And we know from history tech such as AI has only ever really succeeded with massive initial advancements being made by almost exclusively public entities from Darpanet to public universities in California largely creating Silicon Valley.
Again a slight simplification and exaggeration, nevertheless, you‘re making a partially valid point. Public investments in education and basic R&D are certainly useful and have my full support.

And as for not considering Canada or various European governments not neo liberal. How is that not at "No True Scotsman" fallacy?

I‘m completely consistent here. Take Ireland. Ireland is by my standards a neoliberal country. And Fine Gael as well as Fianna Fáil (the two governing parties) are more or less neoliberal in their economic programs.

However, if Sinn Fein would govern Ireland, that wouldn’t magically and suddenly turn Sinn Féin (a left-wing party) into a neoliberal party.
So it really depends on the party or President whether a specific government can be classified as neoliberal.

I gotta say though, your bar for a party or person to qualify as neoliberal is probably lower than mine.

And I can tell you for sure unions in the US have had virtually no power in the US. You are talking about the same period that child labour and indentured servitude is making it's way back to the US. The US labour market looks more like it did in the rest of the world in 1890.

I fundamentally disagree with that statement and it happens to be completely unsubstantiated and uncorroborated . The union influence on foreign economic policy is undeniable. I specialize on trade policy and geo-economics and I can tell you without any hesitation that the unions are a serious problem for any committed free trader like myself.

As for that list of governments that didn't push regulation after major crashes. Virtually all of them are completely disfunctional as a state including one run by an anarcho capitalist who dresses up in super hero costumes. Balsinaro was a fascist. Then again there are a lot of neo liberal fascists.

You said no government on earth would deregulate anymore because of all the supposed market failures and I provided you with a list of western, developed and industrial countries - as well as some emerging economies - that actually did push for deregulation, post-2008.

And to call most of these countries completely dysfunctional is yet another, fairly disrespectful, distortion. By the way, in most of these cases, deregulation was and is the answer to the dysfunction that an overbearing government produced.
22Michelle · 70-79, T
@Burnley123 I think the original post also misses out, perhaps deliberately. Reagan's acceptance / invitation to the Christian (?) Right to influence policy. An influence which has continued to grow within the Republican oarty.
CedricH · 22-25, M
@22Michelle That‘s a fair point, but I wouldn’t say that Trumpism is driven by religious zealotry or social conservatism. They were backing Ted Cruz in 2016. Anyways, beginning with Goldwater, the Republican Party became the only reservoir for white christian nationalists. Less because the Republican Party did something to proactively lure them in, rather, the Democrats shut them out and the Republicans seemed comparatively more appealing to white christian nationalists and certainly to social conservatives.
But I don’t think that having religious conservatives in your party is in any way intolerable in a liberal democracy. That’s the whole premise of christian democratic parties in Europe and Latin America. Reagan and Bush both governed secularly.
beckyromero · 36-40, FVIP
A few points.

Reagan was elected with Republicans taking over control of the U.S. Senate (and held it for six of his eights years). And there was still a good enough number of conservative Democrats in the House that went along with parts of Reagan's economic policies.

Bush 41, however, had to deal with Democrat majories in both the Senate and the House. And the economic downturn in 1992, and the challenge from Pat Buchanan, evaporated his 91% approval rating at the end of the Gulf War.

Then enter H. Ross Perot.

Others will disagree, but I am convinced that had Perot not entered the presidential race, Bush would have won re-election. Yes, I know of the exit poll questions supposedly being split on the Bush or Clinton choice among Perot voters. ( see, for example: https://split-ticket.org/2023/04/01/examining-ross-perots-impact-on-the-1992-presidential-election/ )

But what those exit polls don't tell you is that with Perot forcused almost all his energy on attacking Bush; all the negative attention was on President Bush. Had Perot not ran, Clinton would have faced far more scruntiny. Many of those Perot voters were influenced by all the attacks on Bush. Would a slim majority of them still have favored Clinton had Perot not ran? I do not believe so.

As to when the radicalization of American politics, when the growing divergence began to occur, I would point to 1994.

That's when the Republicans gained control of the House for the first time since Eisenhower's presidency. The grabbed the Senate, too, and defeated two of the most popular Democrat governors in two of the nation's biggest states: New York's Mario Cuomo and Texas' Anne Richards. Speaker Tom Foley (D-WA) lost his re-election bid for his House seat. And Newt Gingrich would be the new Speaker of the House.

Furthermore, as we've seen since 2016, it was a different type of Republican that was being elected. Radical is certaintly the word. But the Democrats share much of the blame for their own losses. They didn't take the possibility if losing the House seriously. The failed to realized that Clinton's victory in 1992 was not a mandate. And Clinton himself failed to take advantage of passing popular legislation while the Dems controlled Congress (just like Obama, 2009-2011). And failed to nominate someone who could have helped reshape the Supreme Court: Mario Cuomo. Democrats in the state legislatures, either thru elected officials or voter-approved initiatives keep cutting their own throats with term limit laws and handing over redistricting to "citizen commissions" whereas Republicans in Red States continued to play hard ball.

Then Democrats lost about 1,000 Congressional, state legislative seats and governorships from 2008 until Obama left office in 2016. And who did they lose them to? Republicans who were generally more radical than those elected in 1994.

Democrats have a leadership problem in Congress, especially in the Senate. That is evident by the W-L record. But the seeds leadings to many of those losses were planted in the state legislatures. Democrats should have gerrymandered House seats in California and New York like Republicans have done in Florida and Texas. Instead, they chose unilateral disarament.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
It is an interesting read, but I assume it is of your making. You seem to think that moving social needs by one party was an attack on democracy. Empathy is not anti-democratic! We were moving to a more accepting society, that is not antidemocratic.

What I really do not understand is how radicalization actually occurs. Throughout history there has always been a group that manages to gain acceptance by a group that causes real trouble. Thos current generation has its MAGA. Yes, I worry how this will all end.
CedricH · 22-25, M
@samueltyler2
You seem to think that moving social needs by one party was an attack on democracy.
I do most certainly not think that. Perhaps you could provide a quote from the post above that gave you that impression.
It’s great to know that my essay captured your interest.

Throughout history there has always been a group that manages to gain acceptance by a group that causes real trouble.
Would you like to elaborate on that?
@samueltyler2 OP claims to support neo liberalism which would be bad enough supporting a totally bankrupt ideology but in practice their brand of "neo liberalism" reads more like terminally online anarcho capitalism and that the private sector can solve all problems...including the ones created by the private sector through basically magic.

And well their idea of radical is anything to the left of Thatcher and Reagan. Two people the world is still recovering from.
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