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Trump‘s victory and the role of class.

While I personally detest the term “class” on account of its Marxist connotations I‘m, nevertheless, going to use it as a technical term in this post.

If people with a lower income are supposed to be voting for the party or candidate that offers more public spending directed towards them, more welfare benefits, larger entitlements and all of it financed by the “others“, then how come, President-elect Trump won over such a large chunk of the American households with an income below the $50.000 USD threshold?
That‘s the question many unnerved advocates of social democratic policies ask themselves these days. Even more so since the Democrats won more votes among households with an income upwards of $100.000 USD.

The Economist Adam Tooze presents an interesting explanation. He posits that there are, in fact, three classes that have to be considered to understand this phenomenon. A less educated, more dependent lower-income, working-class. A powerful, prosperous upper-class and a financially secure, educated professional-managerial class.

The core of his argument revolves around this third class. Trumpism, he suggests, is nothing less than a revolt against the PMC and against the values and norms people of that class tend to espouse.
Which raises the question of who belongs to that group. The boss at work whose views you have to accommodate to keep your job or to get ahead, the HR workers who tell you what you can say or how to conduct yourself in the workplace, the lawyers who tell you what‘s legal and what isn’t, the professional journalists, teachers, academics, scientists and experts who try to claim the authority to explain the world to you (and your children) and who try to adjudicate the difference between truth and lies, government bureaucrats and career politicians who tax you, regulate your life and economic activity while living on another ideological planet than you do.

So when working-class individuals see someone like Trump or Musk flout all of the norms and values of the professional-managerial class, as Tooze constructed it, without any repercussions, then a large proportion of them will envy and admire that audacity and power.
In that sense, lower income people would like to emulate Trump. Become more powerful, through more self-reliance and financial success, in part, to be undeterred by social conventions that might contradict their own.
The goal is less dependency and self-employment. Not a career in an existing institution as a goal in and of itself - which is one major difference between these voters and voters who belong to the professional-managerial class.
That‘s why government handouts or the promise of higher taxes for the rich don’t appeal to this group of people. They‘re more inclined to think that their lack of social mobility is caused by foreign countries, hence their proclivity to support protectionism and isolationism or by immigrants, hence their aversion to legal and illegal immigration. They don’t see wealthy individuals or capitalism itself as the root of the problem, unlike people who’re drawn to left-wing populism. Most of all, they blame the elites or the establishment which, from their point of view, is the PMC. It doesn’t matter that Trump used to be President, that he went to Wharton School or that he’s a billionaire and son of a millionaire. He‘s not part of the establishment club. He‘s not a career politician, he‘s not a lawyer or political scientist. He‘s an idol. Powerful, rich, and incredibly candid and unencumbered.

This is best expressed by the overwhelming electoral advantage Trump has with male, non-college individuals with an income above $100.000 USD.

Trump’s promise is not a higher minimum wage or more public health insurance. He promises something that seems vastly more important to large parts of America‘s working-class. The opportunity to succeed independently. His promises focus on jobs, economic growth, wage pressure and on eschewing entitlement reforms.

Democrats can’t change the values and cultural identities of large parts of the country. They can try to take culturally moderate positions if they want to be more competitive. But most of all, they should embrace the idea of empowerment through economic growth, lower taxes, and a reduced dependency on government support.
As Tooze puts it, when people in West Virginia vote against more federal Medicaid matching funds, they should be taken seriously.
Democrats, however, should pursue policies that can actually ensure these objectives over the long-term and reject counterproductive, albeit intuitive ideas such as protectionism, activist industrial policies or restrictive immigration policies.
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So you don't like the term class yet your argument is based at least initially on a flawed class analysis.

None of this analysis is even remotely new and has been mapped out as far back as the 1840s. The PMC class are essentially the foot soldiers of the elites. Just like the gentry were the foot soldiers of the monarchy. They were nominally different but ultimately both have their class interests tied to the status quo. Back then it was feudalism, now it is capitalism.

In fact much like the gentry of old we have a term of bullshitification of the economy where entire structures are created just to justify the existence of the PMCs.


Also you need to brush up on your history. The social welfare system was never a left wing idea. It was created by the right. Otto von Bismark was hardly a socialist.


The entire idea was to alleviate the situation of the poor and working class just enough that they would not revolt and nothing more.

And oh a 1.5% "victory" with the popular vote blows up your entire ideological narrative that this is all based on some social conservative backlash. It is not. Social conservatives love to pretend they are a "silent majority". The problem is no facts or evidence backs that up.

The one thing you did get right is you can pull the wool over the eyes of a poorly educated population. Trump proved that.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Well, first of all, the welfare state is a left-leaning concept that was partially implemented by Bismarck to placate the growing social democratic movement and communism in general. He pushed through policies that they demanded to weaken them politically, but that doesn’t make the policies any less collectivist or statist. However, since collectivism and statism or government interventionism is consistent with authoritarian conservatism (embodied by Bismarck) it wasn‘t an ideological mystery either.

But again, members of conservative or liberal parties or grassroot movements weren’t the ones who lobbied Bismarck to combine monarchism with light socialism, but Ferdinand Lassalle who founded the precursor to the modern SPD.

And oh a 1.5% "victory" with the popular vote blows up your entire ideological narrative that this is all based on some social conservative
backlash.
Nonsense. The question is not if America is overall socially conservative but if socially conservative motivations drove a decisive fraction of electorate - swing voters, moderates, former Democrats or non-voters - into the arms of Trump.

The PMC always existed. That‘s very accurate and I don’t dispute that anywhere. I disagree with your interpretation that they‘re the agents of the wealthy - which you can probably deduce from what I wrote.
@CedricH No it is not. That is factually wrong. The entire concept was a right wing conservative idea to stop the spread of socialism. Your own source proves you are objectively wrong on this.


Your buzzwords don't change the facts.


Sorry but this is high school level stuff.


Again, The social welfare state was an anti socialist program. Your revisionist "everything the government does is socialism" is American brainrot.





Again, quit pretending a 1% margin is a decisive anything. It just makes you look silly and desperate to vastly overstate the tiny victory.


Your claims about some massive social values base shift is based on your personal feelings and is not supported by any facts or evidence.



You can disagree with facts all you want. that doesn't change reality.

And it is not just my opinion. It is backed by literally hundreds of years of history.

You on the other hand have vibes.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow 😂 Your reading of history is quaint and juvenile. Bismarck pushed through socialist policies because he didn’t want a socialist government. He didn’t go as far as the socialists wanted to but that was the entire point. There‘s no doubt, though, that light socialism is still socialism and it‘s still misguided and flawed.
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@CedricH Quaint and juvenile is your Fox News level analysis.

Those are NOT socialist policies. They were specifically anti socialist policies.

According to you he made Germany socialist to avoid socialism. Great logic there.


There is no such thing as "socialism light". That is not a thing.

It only works if you believe the brain dead American idea that

socialism = Government does stuff.

Even real economists like Richard Wolff make fun of this result of piss poor education in the US.


Socialism is not whatever you feel like making it based on your argument. Words have definitions.


By your own logic the US before Reagan was USSR light. It is just silly.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
According to you he made Germany socialist to avoid socialism. Great logic there.
Wow, reading comprehension, zero. Impressive. I specifically said he approximated socialism to avoid full-on socialism and again, for me, incremental steps in the wrong direction (whatever the purpose) still remain steps in the wrong direction.
To make it more plain to you - because you seem to struggle with this - if an authoritarian government liberalizes the currency regime or lets people demonstrate, then these are still liberal policies even if they don’t end up creating a liberal country. It‘s called an ideological concession.
Bismarck‘s calculus was fatally flawed, by the way, since the SPD still became the largest party of the country while the US didn’t implement any major welfare legislation until the Great Depression yet avoided the emergence of any socialist party.

As to your point about socialism = activist government. I wouldn’t subscribe to that simplification at all. Mercantilism and feudalism, which existed before socialism was intellectually birthed, embraced an activist government and not because renaissance or medieval aristocrats happened to be socialists.
This semantic debate, however, has nothing to do with the content of my post.
What I‘m saying is that welfarism is a social democratic policy - which is accurate. It‘s not just that, though. Social democrats don’t have an intellectual property claim to it.
As for the German welfarism during the late 19th century? It was clearly socialist inspired, yes.

Oh and one last thing, I couldn’t care less about the thoughts on who‘s a real historian, coming from a person who unironically calls himself a socialist and has the anthem of the USSR on his profile 😂.
@CedricH My reading comprehension is not the problem. Your completely nonsensical analysis is.

You are making up distinctions that don't exist to make what you heard on Fox News sound reasonable. It is not.

Words like socialism have definitions.

The definition is not "government does stuff."



Whether his anti socialist policies were flawed is besides the point. Although I agree the working class in Germany saw through it.

Bismark was not about socialism at all. He was trying to create a fake "kinder, gentler feudalism."


Your entire argument is based on the simplistic and false idea that socialism = government does stuff.

And I see you throw around other terms like Feudalism and Mercantilism that you don't understand.



And the person I cited is an economist. You know someone whose literal job is the understand these things. Not someone like you who read Atlas Shrugged and got an economics degree from Reddit.


My final statement was to post the absurdity of your comment.


And I can't take someone seriously who thinks unemployment insurance is step one of the communist revolution.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Your replies are tedious and show a lack of any analytical depth or historical knowledge on your part. They‘re totally disconnected from any argument I made. You‘re distorting whatever I say to fit your amusing little narrative in which I‘m a Fox News consumer who thinks everything the state does is definitionally socialism.

No. I‘m a neoliberal who‘s supportive of neoclassical economic doctrine, who reads Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek or Joseph Schumpeter. I haven’t watched Fox News once in my life, it‘s not even available here in Germany. I get my news from the Financial Times, The Economist, The Wall Street Journal, Foreign Policy, Foreign Affairs, Project Syndicate, the Washington Post or from a variety of prestigious think tanks. But please keep spinning your own stories to mask the total emptiness of your retorts. You‘re simply disagreeing with me to disagree with me.

If you want to engage in a real, material, discussion quote something I wrote specifically and formulate I cogent, coherent counter-argument. If you can do that, I‘ll be delighted to continue this conversation.

It‘s hilarious, though, that you think I don’t understand the terminology behind words like feudalism, mercantilism or socialism when you call yourself a socialist. At best, you‘re most likely a looney social democrat, democratic socialist or left-wing populist.
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@CedricH And you seem confused about your own economic ideology. You claim to be a neo liberal but also subscribe to Austrian economics which are not the same thing.

https://mises.org/mises-wire/why-austrians-are-not-neoliberals
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Right, this reply is symptomatic for your rude, uniformed, and pitiful replies. You can try again and articulate a respectful counter point to anything I said, specifically. But this comment will be delated due your excessive swearing
@CedricH And now your only response is to lie and slander me. Nice.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I never said that I adhere to the Austrian School of Economics, being the cliché of a leftist artist apparently hasn’t equipped you with the skills of basic reading comprehension.
@CedricH Hayek is an Austrian my dude. You are welcome.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Oh this is an inspired new tactic. The slanderer and lier accusing the one who calls you out of being a lier and slanderer in return. Where did you learn to debate like that? While reading George Orwell perhaps?
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CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow My dude, he was also a British citizen but mentioning that I‘m influenced by his readings doesn’t make me axiomatically an adherent of the Austrian School of Economics, or does it, dude? I also mentioned a prominent member of the Chicago School of Economics as my influences, didn’t I, dude?
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow No, you just qualified my accusation because you lack basic cognition. I accused you of swearing in your post, not of swearing at me.
@CedricH So you are confused about your own ideology. Thanks for clearing that up.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow And fyi, I don’t latch onto people who support democratic socialism like Eric Blair.
@CedricH Dude claimed he was a Democratic Socialist. But even people who served with him in Spain said his politics were more sympathetic to Franco.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Confused? I‘m crystal clear about my views and my positions. I don’t need to fit them in an ideological straightjacket like you obsessively need to - apparently.
@CedricH You have proven conclusively you are confused on a great many things.

And the fact you see ideology as a straight jacket just proves that.

Ideology is how you end up with a coherent position that is not all over the place.
CedricH · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Well, I don’t care about what people in Spain said about him. On whose side did he fight during the Spanish civil war? Not of Franco‘s side. I care about his own identification. If someone calls himself a fascist but is actually more of a national conservative then I‘ll still treat him like a fascist. The same applies with Blair and democratic socialism.
@CedricH So you define people by random self defined labels not their actions. Interesting.