So it looks like the London tube drivers are striking again!

@Philth Are the selection procedures similar for the overground railways?


On suicides, I knew two people who threw themselves in front of trains - one of them, on London Underground. I do not know her motive. The other stepped out from behind a bridge abutment on the main line. Although, like me, he was not professionally connected with the railways I would have thought a retired civil-engineer in transport would have considered the effects on the unfortunate driver, and the disruption to the service. I do know what made him do it though.

Years later I chanced to read an article in a railway staff magazine, examining delays and disruptions on the national network. It gave suicides as the main cause, numerically - I don't remember if this also included unintended deaths of trespassers.

An HST driver I used to know, said a particular black spot for suicides on his routes was near Swindon: most cases were of patients from a nearby, big mental-hospital (long since closed).

.....

The question on steam-raising, disposal and cleaning duties are from simple ignorance.

(For the benefit of others, usually the shed, not footplate, crews carried out that unpleasant, dirty work; and steam locomotives are "fired" not "stoked". Though the shed work was part of the career progression to fireman and eventually driver, for many men.)

''''''

Passing a signal at danger is one thing, but how though, can they discipline a driver for a wrong-route having been sent that way? Hardly his or her fault! Or is the actual offence that of failing to stop at the first safe opportunity, to contact the signallers? I understand the system "knows" where each and every train is; and uses that to protect it and others.

It reminds me rather of those two head-on, single-line collisions in recent decades, one in Germany, the other, more recently in Greece. In typical Continental European tradition the authorities immediately assumed criminal action and prosecuted the unfortunate, nearest, modest-ranked station official who flagged the second train away onto the single line, in each case. I never read reports of the outcomes; but don't their railways have interlocked points and signals, so the waiting train was faced with opposite-set points and a red signal, of priority over time-tables and station staff? Reinforced with some equivalent of a tablet and lineside telephones to the signallers? If not, who was really to blame?

''''''
As for the general sneering from other users here at drivers oh a high salary despite not having high academic qualifications, you can't obtain Degrees in Concentration, and no-one can predict what may happen to any person, however intelligent, highly-trained and normally alert, under sudden, unexpected stress.

Such as at Moorgate Underground Station; and a perhaps parallel failure by the driver at Harrow & Wealdstone [BR] Station (1952?). With both men killed outright, can anyone really ever know what caused them to fail suddenly and so disastrously?

So the selection needs be tough to at least try to mitigate against such problems.

Anyway, don't sports and entertainers earn a damn sight more, merely for just entertaining people? Yeah, they might lose a match or forget their lines, they might even lose an allegedly "Reality TV" show, but no-one is killed by it.

''''''''.

Yes, the newspapers and commercial broadcasters in Britain are owned by huge companies; but neither they nor the BBC are controlled by the State save only that the broadcasters (but not the newspapers) are duty-bound to be as impartial as practical in their reporting. They can and do carry opinions but, so we are clear which are basic facts and which are people's or organisations' views. If they were not, but were anti-union as you allege, they would not interview union officers nor try to analyse disputes.


BTW though I have never worked in the transport industry, I have a broad, basic, lay understanding of many scientific and engineering disciplines.

I am also a Trades Union member (though now of its Retired members' branch).

@ArishMell

In respect of those who take their life by standing in front of a moving train, by the time you have reached this thought you're so fkd up that the effects upon others don't even enter your head.

In respect of accepting a wrong route, yes it really is deemed as the driver's fault.

In respect of 'automatic' and 'fail safe' systems they can and do malfunction. I've been given a green light into the back of a stationary freight train, under a signalling system whose design means this is 'impossible' : Track Circuit Block signalling which is probably the most commonly used throughout the UK and was in use during the time of the Clapham Junction disaster (where a train was also given a green light into the back of another ahead which was at a stand) It was only by me following instinct and a hunch on the day it happened, that prevented me rear-ending the stationary train. I've also experienced engines powering up by themselves, and an unsolicited (ie not initiated by the driver) brake release. Again all due to faulty equipment.

@Mesthartiya "caves in" to their "demands" as you say. Couldn't possibly imagine which sort of media outlets you got that language from, I'm surprised you sold yourself short by not also including "union barons" or "ransom" 🤣🤣🤣
Give yourself a year in the job, and there will be one of two likely outcomes:
1, you've been sacked for a fuckup and still don't understand what the big deal about it was
2, you've had your eyes opened by the reality of what's required to survive in keeping this job, and will have modified your stance on the situation.
This ain't me being harsh, I see it in the freshly trained new recruits who are released from the wing of the training department and now have to fly solo. The ones who last are those who realise early on that blind eyes are happily turned so long as the wheels keep moving, but the moment something goes wrong it's all your fault and there's no escape: So cover your arse in everything that you do and don't stand for any shit....
The ones who fall are those who think it's easy money, that everything's gonna be ok and that they don't need a Union for support.

@HootyTheNightOwl Very well put.

My connection with any public transport is only as a passenger: buses frequently, the overground railways occasionally (speeds routinely up to 70mph on some, and up to 100mph on other routes), London Underground very rarely.

I have known over the years a few railwaymen.

One commented to me that the lamps on the front, when driving at night, at best only show you what you are about to hit, even with the modern passenger-train lamps that look to me like car headlights. Their primary purpose was always to indicate to others the presence of the train, and by their pattern, its type. Not to illuminate the track ahead, though in British practice the lines are all fenced from the land alongside, and after a few years of those desperately hazardous, European type, half-barrier poles, most level-crossings have been reverted to having full-width gates. You can't stop all trespassers and suicides though.

Another, an HST driver, explained that you have to be able to maintain the booked 100+mph, and know where you are, in all conditions, even when you can't see the rails in front on very dark and foggy nights. In years past, fog was a major disrupter of services.


I have also known personally two people who committed suicide by stepping in front of trains - one on London Underground, one on the main overground (British Rail as it was).

This is extremely distressing and shocking for the poor driver. It is also the most common cause of service delays and disruption. Each incident of suicide, unintentional death of a trespasser or indeed fatal accident to an authorised railway employee, needs a relief driver finding, the body recovering, the Police and other authorities investigating the scene.


A few years ago someone told me he was almost killed when caught unawares at a level crossing between his home and his local pub.

Wheel-chair bound, he was nearly clear when the bell started ringing, lights flashing, barriers descending, then one wheel dropped into rough ground alongside the pavement. Something gave him the immediate instinct and strength to grab a post and pull himself clear as the train raced through, catching his wheelchair and hurling it some fifty yards down the line. Luckily a waiting motorist was able to help him.

He told me this when I was visiting him, and I joined him for lunch in the same pub. On our return a similar thing almost happened. I was just able to grab the chair and pull us both back to safety as the barrier closed far to soon before the train passed, at I guess well over 70mph, possibly 90, and of course we had no idea which direction it would approach from.

....

So although I don't altogether agree with some of the claims made in the last year of industrial action on the railways, train staff do deserve high salaries. They are not vacuous TV "celebrities", temporary pop or sports stars and football pundits paid inversely proportionately to technical talent and work-value. Nor are they politicians, paid less than most money-traders, trade-law barristers and large-company directors. They have far greater, far more real responsibilities than any of those.

One point not covered in the reporting of the national network railway disputes, is exactly with whom the staff were in dispute. The livery names are just trade-marks. Few if any of the supposed railway companies are individual entities; and some are foreign-owned. Many are merely regional brands of just one company, the First Group.

@Mesthartiya Block you for being a bit whiney? Wow. 🤣🤣🤣

@MaryJo1996 😉

@MaryJo1996 I have never seen any of these

@Philth ok,but there is no separate drivers cab on DLR trains so if I am the only one on board there is no driver. This has happened on several occasions.

@meJess you are entirely correct in that there's no separate driver's cab. As I've said earlier, the manual driving controls for use in an emergency are beneath a fold down cover. There is no requirement for the train attendant to be in this position during normal operation, they only need to occupy the space when something's gone wrong.
As for your claim that it is commonplace for DLR trains to run without a member of staff on board, this is a reportable safety incident which, so the link suggests, is something which would normally warrant investigation, ie it is not a planned or intentional event and counts as a violation of safety procedures.

https://londonist.com/2007/11/unmanned_train

@meJess "Tube trains don't need a driver" ok then. It's true that on a good day they are capable of running automatically. But there aren't that many good days, ya know. On a good day, football stadiums, other entertainment venues even churches don't need stewards to help with crowd management or be there in case of emergency. On a good day, most of a ship's crew aren't required. On a good day, flight attendants aren't really earning what they're actually paid for: to respond when things go wrong. My job as a train driver in another part of the UK outside of London *on a good day* isn't that difficult. Except that there aren't that many good days. Once I got the hunch from the body language of a young lady who was waiting at a level crossing.... Something just didn't seem right so I stopped and called it in. The train behind mine was cautioned; she was found sitting on the track with a suicide note. My actions saved not only her life, but also major disruption. But hey, like you say, do away with drivers. No. This is why the human element including the ability to take control of the trains when 'automatic' systems fail, will always be in place. Or to put it another way, if you're seriously suggesting that it's OK to have up to 1000 people or more, locked inside a metal box in 12 foot wide tunnels over 150 years old, lined with live rails conducting lethal voltages with no proper inbuilt escape routes (that is to say for the avoidance of doubt, an extremely hazardous environment) without a single trained responsible person on board to help out if something goes wrong, then you're living in fantasy land. It's pretty easy to make a train automatically start and stop at stations, yes. But incredibly difficult to design in all the other systems to do what a driver also performs as part of their role. Design me an automated system which can tell, accurately, whether the train has hit a person, or just an empty sack that's blowing around. Which can tell the difference between a noisy rail joint or a broken rail. Which can tell between lineside signage or a fallen tree or piece of equipment. Which can tell between another train with a bright light, or arcing electrical equipment. Which can properly detect snow, and then modify use of the brake system to accommodate this (you didn't know there is a whole set of rules for driving in snow, to protect the brakes from freezing up?) This time of year (it's leaf fall season) we're approaching stations and examining the colour of the rails in order to make a judgement about how slippery the rails might be, therefore when we need to start breaking. Observing the lineside environment for early evidence of flooding (which can easily wash the track away) landslips, unsafe trees (both of which can cause derailments).
Yet here you are, insisting that DLR regularly runs without a trained member of staff on board (it doesn't) and saying it's ok to do without the only remaining person on board who is trained to detect dangerous situations and take the most appropriate action.

@Philth I am in a union myself and I don't see the law as anti-union nor especially draconian; but I do agree with your remark about selling everything off to the lowest bidder. Many are Americans to whom "special relationship" means, "what's mine is mine and what's yours, I will take". Not all buyers are private companies, though. Some are countries.

With one caveat though: although selling off the public services was started by the Conservatives in the 1980s, never forget the following Labour government continued this, if anything even more zealously.

My own employer was privatised by Tony Blair's "Champagne Socialists" in a grubby deal helped by some shady Wall Street outfit greatly under-valuing it. (I was a low-ranking, industrial-grade civil-servant in that employment, doing technical not administrative work. )

The same Labour PM also wanted to give the Post Office to the Dutch company, TNT; and it is a Labour government now that has just invited so many foreign investors to Britain... They are not here to invest in Britain for Britain for their own companies or even countries. So all the profits after tax (if they pay it) go abroad. About the only one not invited was Elon Musk... good - they can keep him!

I live in the South of England. If I travel by train to the North the initial leg, to Bristol, is courtesy of the First Group, based in Edinburgh. That from Bristol to Leeds uses Cross-Country Trains: a service brand hiding that the owner is Germany, the country!

Similarly, those who buy their electricity from EDF, help France's national exchequer.

Labour or Conservative, they are as short-sighted as each other over this "inward investment" myth!

@ArishMell i would argue that the 'Labour' Government led by Bliar was not a true Labour (ie led by socialist principles) Government. How else can one explain Rupert Murdoch, staunch opposer of the left, switching his support from the then Tory government to instead, support Blair? Murdoch didn't of course have a sudden personality swap, instead, he saw what Bliar presented as the next, least unpallatable choice in the face of absolute disarray from the Conservatives. Which is why under that Government we saw a diluted continuation of previous Tory policy.

Of course, we have since seen Labour leaders with true socialist values - and the media machine swung into a frenzy of work in arranging what must be the most orchestrated, sustained and far reaching smear / discredit campaign ever to be carried out against one individual. Now that this person is no longer Labour leader, the proles have largely forgotten all their hatred against the 'terrorist sympathiser' who 'hates Britain' and instead, accepted a different 'Labour' leader who does not represent a challenge to the British Establishment, a safe pair of hands, in the shape of Keir Starmer.

@Philth I don't worry about "threats" to any "establishment"; let alone to clowns like Murdoch, Musk et al.

Nor really, about which Party is in power.

I worry more about what the Government, via Parliament, does or doesn't do to or for the country; and that includes falling for this "inward" or "overseas" so-called "investment" nonsense that basically may as well be sending container-ships full of cash abroad.

@Philth we both know that sort of practice is illegal in the UK. So can't be happening at all!

@Londonguy23 not quite sure what practice you refer to in your comment.

@Londonguy23 I don't think you can compare professions, training regimes and salaries in such a pat fashion. I accept nothing is "perfect" but your list is of professions with very different skills, character requirements and responsibilities.

@soar2newhighs There should be no need for a settlement. Aslef and Tfl are motivated by pure greed.

@Mesthartiya If they strike, they win. The people pay the price e both literally and vibrate,
I don’t disagree that greed is very much a part.

@soar2newhighs Agreed.

@ArishMell Thank you for the thorough reply

@Mesthartiya ahh so we're back on the old favourite: the race to the bottom, asking why some occupations earn more instead of asking why others earn less.
Presumably, when you're looking for a new job or just a move within the same organisation, you seek out those positions with worse pay than you're currently on?

@Philth Ah but the thing is with being a tube driver, you see, is that it's a semi-closed shop. To even be considered for a post you have to be working for TfL, then have a minimum of six-months in a customer facing role. After that, it's pretty much who you know. They hardly ever advertise externally. That's what you get when you strike a shady deal with a union.

It's essentially impossible to become a tube driver, unless you're in the club.

@RachelLia2003 I assume you meant Communism....

Since when have pay and/or conditions disputes been an aspect of Communism?

The UK is not Communist. The Greater London Council - or whatever it calls itself these days - is not Communist.

Communist systems would not pay anything like as generously as that, but even if they do, are hardly noted for tolerating unions, let alone any dissent.

Fire them.... Then what? Who would drive the trains? Or teach any replacements how to?

Your comment is totally incorrect.

@RachelLia2003 if you can't even spell 'communism' you certainly shouldn't be advocating a course of action which endangers people's livelihoods.

@soar2newhighs Good for them, of course. Bad for the rest of us. Aslef know they have enormous power in London and can essentially hold the municipality to ransom whenever they feel like it in order to get another disproportionately large pay rise.

@sylvsn59

The 'tube' is a subway in Britain.

@sylvsn59 it’s what we call the underground trains in London

@Mesthartiya got it

@kutee No, I mean private healthcare. As in, no waiting weeks if not months.

@ArishMell They're not making as much money as drivers on the Elizabeth Line. They're only on £60-70k bless them.

@Mesthartiya Thankyou1 Different companies then? Or all Transport for London staff?

@Donotfolowme I meant upwards of 60,000. As in 60,000+

@jshm2 like anywhere, if they do spend it on upgrades...

the union luddites will start crying about automation...