So it looks like the London tube drivers are striking again!
Another week of misery beckons in November! What’s wrong?? £60,000+ salary, 49 days paid holiday, private healthcare and final salary pension not good enough??😡😡
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Philth · 46-50, M
Fascinating to see how all of the comments on this thread are from people who clearly know fk all about the job.
Some facts: because almost all of the media is owned either by billionaires or controlled by the State - both of which don't like unions and want you to believe that unions are bad and that all their disputes are either petty or greedy - this means that at best, you won't be getting the full story, and at worst (or most likely) you'll be getting an extremely distorted story which is presented in a way which heavily discredits the unions.
Because the job is so very demanding, very few applicants for this role actually pass the selection process - this is because London Underground don't want people driving their trains who are a liability. Who'd have thought it? It's not uncommon for applicants who have got a fair way into the process, to *deselect* themselves when they realise how horrific the shift patterns are, how much responsibility they have, or that the slightest moment of inattention could have them sacked, prosecuted and imprisoned. Oh, I'm sorry, did you all genuinely believe the job comprises pressing a few buttons, did you really believe what the media told you? The pressure is vast and the mental health impacts manifest in similar statistical outcomes as those found amongst airline pilots (around a third of whom are at any one time on prescribed medication for mental health issues)
All this came home to me when I became a train driver - suddenly people started hating on me like I'd become a different person, others started asking absolutely batshit crazy questions that they genuinely thought might be true.... "is it true that you get 2 hours free at the start or finish of your shift, because the unions won't relinquish the agreements about stoking up the fire or raking out the ashes from when there were steam locomotives?" (No) Is it true that after your third suicide, you get a million pound payout and get retired? (No, I know a driver who's into double figures of people who've ended their life by throwing themselves under his train)" Is it true you don't have to steer (Yes that's true, but did you know that going the wrong way or 'accepting a wrong route' is in terms of disciplinary action, more the driver's fault than it is the fault of the signaller who set the route in the first place?) But you know what, they never ask about the actual challenges of the job, such as "how do you single-handedly manage an emergency evacuation of a train containing several hundred people on a Saturday night, many of whom are drunk or drugged", or "is it true that most of the safety systems on board a train are designed to be over-ridden, so you can get the thing back to base when there's a technical fault" or "is it true that's there's certain situations where you're allowed to drive the wrong way down the track or pass a red signal" etc etc etc.
Ask not why train drivers earn so much, but instead ask why bus drivers, healthcare professionals etc are paid so little. You're being had.
Some facts: because almost all of the media is owned either by billionaires or controlled by the State - both of which don't like unions and want you to believe that unions are bad and that all their disputes are either petty or greedy - this means that at best, you won't be getting the full story, and at worst (or most likely) you'll be getting an extremely distorted story which is presented in a way which heavily discredits the unions.
Because the job is so very demanding, very few applicants for this role actually pass the selection process - this is because London Underground don't want people driving their trains who are a liability. Who'd have thought it? It's not uncommon for applicants who have got a fair way into the process, to *deselect* themselves when they realise how horrific the shift patterns are, how much responsibility they have, or that the slightest moment of inattention could have them sacked, prosecuted and imprisoned. Oh, I'm sorry, did you all genuinely believe the job comprises pressing a few buttons, did you really believe what the media told you? The pressure is vast and the mental health impacts manifest in similar statistical outcomes as those found amongst airline pilots (around a third of whom are at any one time on prescribed medication for mental health issues)
All this came home to me when I became a train driver - suddenly people started hating on me like I'd become a different person, others started asking absolutely batshit crazy questions that they genuinely thought might be true.... "is it true that you get 2 hours free at the start or finish of your shift, because the unions won't relinquish the agreements about stoking up the fire or raking out the ashes from when there were steam locomotives?" (No) Is it true that after your third suicide, you get a million pound payout and get retired? (No, I know a driver who's into double figures of people who've ended their life by throwing themselves under his train)" Is it true you don't have to steer (Yes that's true, but did you know that going the wrong way or 'accepting a wrong route' is in terms of disciplinary action, more the driver's fault than it is the fault of the signaller who set the route in the first place?) But you know what, they never ask about the actual challenges of the job, such as "how do you single-handedly manage an emergency evacuation of a train containing several hundred people on a Saturday night, many of whom are drunk or drugged", or "is it true that most of the safety systems on board a train are designed to be over-ridden, so you can get the thing back to base when there's a technical fault" or "is it true that's there's certain situations where you're allowed to drive the wrong way down the track or pass a red signal" etc etc etc.
Ask not why train drivers earn so much, but instead ask why bus drivers, healthcare professionals etc are paid so little. You're being had.
SW-User
@Philth Oh believe me, I do ask why bus drivers, healhcare professionals etc. are paid so little. I also ask why no-one caves into their demands for fair pay, or even listens. Tfl is just one big semi-closed private club who can hold London to ransom at a whim.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Philth Are the selection procedures similar for the overground railways?
On suicides, I knew two people who threw themselves in front of trains - one of them, on London Underground. I do not know her motive. The other stepped out from behind a bridge abutment on the main line. Although, like me, he was not professionally connected with the railways I would have thought a retired civil-engineer in transport would have considered the effects on the unfortunate driver, and the disruption to the service. I do know what made him do it though.
Years later I chanced to read an article in a railway staff magazine, examining delays and disruptions on the national network. It gave suicides as the main cause, numerically - I don't remember if this also included unintended deaths of trespassers.
An HST driver I used to know, said a particular black spot for suicides on his routes was near Swindon: most cases were of patients from a nearby, big mental-hospital (long since closed).
.....
The question on steam-raising, disposal and cleaning duties are from simple ignorance.
(For the benefit of others, usually the shed, not footplate, crews carried out that unpleasant, dirty work; and steam locomotives are "fired" not "stoked". Though the shed work was part of the career progression to fireman and eventually driver, for many men.)
''''''
Passing a signal at danger is one thing, but how though, can they discipline a driver for a wrong-route having been sent that way? Hardly his or her fault! Or is the actual offence that of failing to stop at the first safe opportunity, to contact the signallers? I understand the system "knows" where each and every train is; and uses that to protect it and others.
It reminds me rather of those two head-on, single-line collisions in recent decades, one in Germany, the other, more recently in Greece. In typical Continental European tradition the authorities immediately assumed criminal action and prosecuted the unfortunate, nearest, modest-ranked station official who flagged the second train away onto the single line, in each case. I never read reports of the outcomes; but don't their railways have interlocked points and signals, so the waiting train was faced with opposite-set points and a red signal, of priority over time-tables and station staff? Reinforced with some equivalent of a tablet and lineside telephones to the signallers? If not, who was really to blame?
''''''
As for the general sneering from other users here at drivers oh a high salary despite not having high academic qualifications, you can't obtain Degrees in Concentration, and no-one can predict what may happen to any person, however intelligent, highly-trained and normally alert, under sudden, unexpected stress.
Such as at Moorgate Underground Station; and a perhaps parallel failure by the driver at Harrow & Wealdstone [BR] Station (1952?). With both men killed outright, can anyone really ever know what caused them to fail suddenly and so disastrously?
So the selection needs be tough to at least try to mitigate against such problems.
Anyway, don't sports and entertainers earn a damn sight more, merely for just entertaining people? Yeah, they might lose a match or forget their lines, they might even lose an allegedly "Reality TV" show, but no-one is killed by it.
''''''''.
Yes, the newspapers and commercial broadcasters in Britain are owned by huge companies; but neither they nor the BBC are controlled by the State save only that the broadcasters (but not the newspapers) are duty-bound to be as impartial as practical in their reporting. They can and do carry opinions but, so we are clear which are basic facts and which are people's or organisations' views. If they were not, but were anti-union as you allege, they would not interview union officers nor try to analyse disputes.
BTW though I have never worked in the transport industry, I have a broad, basic, lay understanding of many scientific and engineering disciplines.
I am also a Trades Union member (though now of its Retired members' branch).
On suicides, I knew two people who threw themselves in front of trains - one of them, on London Underground. I do not know her motive. The other stepped out from behind a bridge abutment on the main line. Although, like me, he was not professionally connected with the railways I would have thought a retired civil-engineer in transport would have considered the effects on the unfortunate driver, and the disruption to the service. I do know what made him do it though.
Years later I chanced to read an article in a railway staff magazine, examining delays and disruptions on the national network. It gave suicides as the main cause, numerically - I don't remember if this also included unintended deaths of trespassers.
An HST driver I used to know, said a particular black spot for suicides on his routes was near Swindon: most cases were of patients from a nearby, big mental-hospital (long since closed).
.....
The question on steam-raising, disposal and cleaning duties are from simple ignorance.
(For the benefit of others, usually the shed, not footplate, crews carried out that unpleasant, dirty work; and steam locomotives are "fired" not "stoked". Though the shed work was part of the career progression to fireman and eventually driver, for many men.)
''''''
Passing a signal at danger is one thing, but how though, can they discipline a driver for a wrong-route having been sent that way? Hardly his or her fault! Or is the actual offence that of failing to stop at the first safe opportunity, to contact the signallers? I understand the system "knows" where each and every train is; and uses that to protect it and others.
It reminds me rather of those two head-on, single-line collisions in recent decades, one in Germany, the other, more recently in Greece. In typical Continental European tradition the authorities immediately assumed criminal action and prosecuted the unfortunate, nearest, modest-ranked station official who flagged the second train away onto the single line, in each case. I never read reports of the outcomes; but don't their railways have interlocked points and signals, so the waiting train was faced with opposite-set points and a red signal, of priority over time-tables and station staff? Reinforced with some equivalent of a tablet and lineside telephones to the signallers? If not, who was really to blame?
''''''
As for the general sneering from other users here at drivers oh a high salary despite not having high academic qualifications, you can't obtain Degrees in Concentration, and no-one can predict what may happen to any person, however intelligent, highly-trained and normally alert, under sudden, unexpected stress.
Such as at Moorgate Underground Station; and a perhaps parallel failure by the driver at Harrow & Wealdstone [BR] Station (1952?). With both men killed outright, can anyone really ever know what caused them to fail suddenly and so disastrously?
So the selection needs be tough to at least try to mitigate against such problems.
Anyway, don't sports and entertainers earn a damn sight more, merely for just entertaining people? Yeah, they might lose a match or forget their lines, they might even lose an allegedly "Reality TV" show, but no-one is killed by it.
''''''''.
Yes, the newspapers and commercial broadcasters in Britain are owned by huge companies; but neither they nor the BBC are controlled by the State save only that the broadcasters (but not the newspapers) are duty-bound to be as impartial as practical in their reporting. They can and do carry opinions but, so we are clear which are basic facts and which are people's or organisations' views. If they were not, but were anti-union as you allege, they would not interview union officers nor try to analyse disputes.
BTW though I have never worked in the transport industry, I have a broad, basic, lay understanding of many scientific and engineering disciplines.
I am also a Trades Union member (though now of its Retired members' branch).
Philth · 46-50, M
@ArishMell
In respect of those who take their life by standing in front of a moving train, by the time you have reached this thought you're so fkd up that the effects upon others don't even enter your head.
In respect of accepting a wrong route, yes it really is deemed as the driver's fault.
In respect of 'automatic' and 'fail safe' systems they can and do malfunction. I've been given a green light into the back of a stationary freight train, under a signalling system whose design means this is 'impossible' : Track Circuit Block signalling which is probably the most commonly used throughout the UK and was in use during the time of the Clapham Junction disaster (where a train was also given a green light into the back of another ahead which was at a stand) It was only by me following instinct and a hunch on the day it happened, that prevented me rear-ending the stationary train. I've also experienced engines powering up by themselves, and an unsolicited (ie not initiated by the driver) brake release. Again all due to faulty equipment.
In respect of those who take their life by standing in front of a moving train, by the time you have reached this thought you're so fkd up that the effects upon others don't even enter your head.
In respect of accepting a wrong route, yes it really is deemed as the driver's fault.
In respect of 'automatic' and 'fail safe' systems they can and do malfunction. I've been given a green light into the back of a stationary freight train, under a signalling system whose design means this is 'impossible' : Track Circuit Block signalling which is probably the most commonly used throughout the UK and was in use during the time of the Clapham Junction disaster (where a train was also given a green light into the back of another ahead which was at a stand) It was only by me following instinct and a hunch on the day it happened, that prevented me rear-ending the stationary train. I've also experienced engines powering up by themselves, and an unsolicited (ie not initiated by the driver) brake release. Again all due to faulty equipment.
Philth · 46-50, M
@SW-User "caves in" to their "demands" as you say. Couldn't possibly imagine which sort of media outlets you got that language from, I'm surprised you sold yourself short by not also including "union barons" or "ransom" 🤣🤣🤣
Give yourself a year in the job, and there will be one of two likely outcomes:
1, you've been sacked for a fuckup and still don't understand what the big deal about it was
2, you've had your eyes opened by the reality of what's required to survive in keeping this job, and will have modified your stance on the situation.
This ain't me being harsh, I see it in the freshly trained new recruits who are released from the wing of the training department and now have to fly solo. The ones who last are those who realise early on that blind eyes are happily turned so long as the wheels keep moving, but the moment something goes wrong it's all your fault and there's no escape: So cover your arse in everything that you do and don't stand for any shit....
The ones who fall are those who think it's easy money, that everything's gonna be ok and that they don't need a Union for support.
Give yourself a year in the job, and there will be one of two likely outcomes:
1, you've been sacked for a fuckup and still don't understand what the big deal about it was
2, you've had your eyes opened by the reality of what's required to survive in keeping this job, and will have modified your stance on the situation.
This ain't me being harsh, I see it in the freshly trained new recruits who are released from the wing of the training department and now have to fly solo. The ones who last are those who realise early on that blind eyes are happily turned so long as the wheels keep moving, but the moment something goes wrong it's all your fault and there's no escape: So cover your arse in everything that you do and don't stand for any shit....
The ones who fall are those who think it's easy money, that everything's gonna be ok and that they don't need a Union for support.