Question for anti-trumpers
Would you be okay with a second Trump term if the House and Senate were solidly blue for the next 4 years?
46-50, M
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TinyViolins · 31-35, M
My opposition to Trump actually has little to do with policy, given that he barely accomplished anything his first term and didn't even bother having a platform in his re-election bid.
I have always supported candidates that have strong moral character, and Trump is a disgusting human being. He's defrauded working-class contractors, cheated on each of his wives, has over 2 dozen S.A allegations, was good friends with Epstein, tried to overturn the results of a fair election, and is now openly accepting bribes from oil and financial execs in his fundraising efforts. Someone like that shouldn't have any kind of authority
I have always supported candidates that have strong moral character, and Trump is a disgusting human being. He's defrauded working-class contractors, cheated on each of his wives, has over 2 dozen S.A allegations, was good friends with Epstein, tried to overturn the results of a fair election, and is now openly accepting bribes from oil and financial execs in his fundraising efforts. Someone like that shouldn't have any kind of authority
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HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
You are not paying attention
You are not paying attention
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@HoraceGreenley since when are you are an anti-trumper?
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley You're willfully ignoring any source that isn't showering praise on your new golden cow. You can feel free to look up any of the claims I made for yourself and see that every one of those claims are corroborated
If you think all of those crimes are justifiable in a presidential candidate, then there truly is no bar low enough for your standard of decency
If you think all of those crimes are justifiable in a presidential candidate, then there truly is no bar low enough for your standard of decency
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@TinyViolins Apparently you don't know Greenley very well. I would welcome sincere debate on issues with Republicans/conservatives who are capable of considering multiple sides to issues. Instead we get Right wing media parrots who have arguments flawed in premise.
And of course they would claim those on the left are the same way. Yes, *some* on the left are, but I see plenty of democrats/liberals on here openly criticize the platforms/policies of their leaders and even agree with some positions Trump/Republicans have taken. I see none of that from the MAGA crowd. No desire at all to reach an objective truth.
And of course they would claim those on the left are the same way. Yes, *some* on the left are, but I see plenty of democrats/liberals on here openly criticize the platforms/policies of their leaders and even agree with some positions Trump/Republicans have taken. I see none of that from the MAGA crowd. No desire at all to reach an objective truth.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@trollslayer Critical thinking is becoming a lost art
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@TinyViolins Exactly. I see some on the left still capable of trying to understand opposing arguments/positions. I see almost nobody on the right still capable.
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
If you want to call low inflation, a strong GDP. historically low unemployment and cessation of warfare around the world nothing...then you're right
If you want to call low inflation, a strong GDP. historically low unemployment and cessation of warfare around the world nothing...then you're right
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@trollslayer
Spoken like a left wing media parrot
Spoken like a left wing media parrot
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@HoraceGreenley LOL. Considering I have barely listened to/read any media except sports media in years...
LOL.
LOL.
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@trollslayer
Osmosis I guess
Osmosis I guess
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley And Trump increased the national debt by $8 trillion, far more than any other president in history.
His PPP and EIDL plans alone generated billions of dollars in fraud. It was basically a way of funneling taxpayer money to the rich, which was exacerbated by his tax cut which allowed the ultra wealthy hoard even more money.
His PPP and EIDL plans alone generated billions of dollars in fraud. It was basically a way of funneling taxpayer money to the rich, which was exacerbated by his tax cut which allowed the ultra wealthy hoard even more money.
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
Actually Obama increased the national debt more than any other President.
Trump was paying for Covid
PPP and EIDL loans were not a way to funnel money to wealthy people.
Rich people don't hoard money. You will have to explain that. But you are wrong.
Actually Obama increased the national debt more than any other President.
Trump was paying for Covid
PPP and EIDL loans were not a way to funnel money to wealthy people.
Rich people don't hoard money. You will have to explain that. But you are wrong.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley Obama was in office twice as long and inherited the worst economic recession since the Great Depression. Nobody beats Trumps spending over a 4-year term, and Trump only paid for 9 months of covid while Biden had to pay for 2 and a half years.
But Trump did more for black people than any other president, right?
If you don't believe that the rich are hoarding their money, look at the data
The Treasury Department and Small Business Administration encouraged big banks to provide PPP loans to their “wealthy existing clients at the expense of truly struggling small businesses in underserved communities,” a House subcommittee said in October after a months-long investigation into the disbursement of PPP funds.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/12/02/new-ppp-loan-data-reveals-most-of-the-525-billion-given-out-went-to-larger-businesses-some-with-trump-kushner-ties/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/12/02/new-ppp-loan-data-reveals-most-of-the-525-billion-given-out-went-to-larger-businesses-some-with-trump-kushner-ties/
“The Administration’s implementation failures had consequences,” the report states. "Forty-one percent of businesses owned by African Americans failed between February and April 2020, higher than any other demographic group and more than double the percentage of white-owned businesses that closed over the same period.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/10/16/trump-admin-big-banks-billions-ppp-funds-wealthy-clients-at-expense-of-struggling-small-businesses-house-report/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/10/16/trump-admin-big-banks-billions-ppp-funds-wealthy-clients-at-expense-of-struggling-small-businesses-house-report/
But Trump did more for black people than any other president, right?
If you don't believe that the rich are hoarding their money, look at the data
According to an analysis by American for Tax Fairness of new Federal Reserve data on household income and wealth, America’s billionaires and centi-millionaires (those with at least $100 million of wealth) collectively held at least $8.5 trillion of “unrealized capital gains” in 2022. These profits from unsold investments constitute the largest source of income for the super-rich. This staggering accumulation of “quiet” income may never be taxed unless special taxes on the ultra-wealthy now under consideration in Congress are enacted.
https://americansfortaxfairness.org/ultra-wealthys-8-5-trillion-untaxed-income/
https://americansfortaxfairness.org/ultra-wealthys-8-5-trillion-untaxed-income/
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley It's the equivalent of having an uncashed check
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
That is incorrect.
If you own a house and it appreciates in value, that appreciation is an unrealized capital gain.
That's not income to the home owner.
The only way to obtain that gain is to sell the house.
That is incorrect.
If you own a house and it appreciates in value, that appreciation is an unrealized capital gain.
That's not income to the home owner.
The only way to obtain that gain is to sell the house.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley The ultra wealthy have far, far more in investments than just their house. 64,000 people own more than $8.5 trillion in unrealized profits. Houses alone don't jump that dramatically in price.
The point still stands that rich people hoard their wealth
The point still stands that rich people hoard their wealth
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
First, my example holds, because until the asset is sold, the owner has no actual cash. Therefore it cannot be income as you asserted.
Besides, the value of an asset fluctuates over time. You can only value an asset at a particular moment in time. What happens if the value declines?
Secondly you have not defined how rich people hoard. You make a blanket statement without any explanation.
As a result you have no idea what you are saying. You have no understanding whatsoever.
First, my example holds, because until the asset is sold, the owner has no actual cash. Therefore it cannot be income as you asserted.
Besides, the value of an asset fluctuates over time. You can only value an asset at a particular moment in time. What happens if the value declines?
Secondly you have not defined how rich people hoard. You make a blanket statement without any explanation.
As a result you have no idea what you are saying. You have no understanding whatsoever.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley You're just arguing semantics.
I'm not talking about declining assets, I'm talking about how they're holding onto $8.5 trillion in profit from unrealized capital gains. That is more than the GDPs of California, Texas, and New York combined
They could sell many of those assets and use that money to do amazing deeds around the world, but instead they just sit on it to avoid paying taxes.
To further illustrate my point, the IRS in just one year collected over $1 billion in unpaid taxes from millionaires and billionaires. They had to gather people and resources just to get the rich to pay what they owed
I'm not talking about declining assets, I'm talking about how they're holding onto $8.5 trillion in profit from unrealized capital gains. That is more than the GDPs of California, Texas, and New York combined
They could sell many of those assets and use that money to do amazing deeds around the world, but instead they just sit on it to avoid paying taxes.
To further illustrate my point, the IRS in just one year collected over $1 billion in unpaid taxes from millionaires and billionaires. They had to gather people and resources just to get the rich to pay what they owed
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
You still don't understand the concept of unrealized. Besides who atr you to tell other people what to do with their property.
You still don't understand the concept of unrealized. Besides who atr you to tell other people what to do with their property.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley I have an accounting degree from the #1 undergraduate program in the nation. I graduated with a 3.0 GPA. I know very well what I'm talking about.
You had no facts to present so you chose to frame this as a semantics argument in order to undermine my level of understanding. It speaks volumes about your level of intellectual laziness to ignore the point and focus on such a pedantic argument.
You had no facts to present so you chose to frame this as a semantics argument in order to undermine my level of understanding. It speaks volumes about your level of intellectual laziness to ignore the point and focus on such a pedantic argument.
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
That's makes your comments even worse. You should know better
That's makes your comments even worse. You should know better
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
And who are you to tell people what to do with their property?
And who are you to tell people what to do with their property?
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley At what point did I tell people what to do with their property?
I do know better. You're stuck arguing a rhetorical point about the exact definition of income. Investment income is income. Just because their financial assets haven't been sold yet doesn't mean they're not going to eventually.
If one were to stick to your logic, an employee can argue that they haven't been paid simply because they haven't bothered to cash their paycheck.
I do know better. You're stuck arguing a rhetorical point about the exact definition of income. Investment income is income. Just because their financial assets haven't been sold yet doesn't mean they're not going to eventually.
If one were to stick to your logic, an employee can argue that they haven't been paid simply because they haven't bothered to cash their paycheck.
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins
Taxing unrealized capital gains. How does that work?
How do you know assets will be sold? What if they are passed to their children?
You are assuming the assets will be sold. To do this you are forcing people to sell assets.
Besides how do you know what the capital gain will be in the future? What if the asset is not sold for 20 years from today?
There is no way to do this realistically, which is why it's never been done before.
This is delusional
Taxing unrealized capital gains. How does that work?
How do you know assets will be sold? What if they are passed to their children?
You are assuming the assets will be sold. To do this you are forcing people to sell assets.
Besides how do you know what the capital gain will be in the future? What if the asset is not sold for 20 years from today?
There is no way to do this realistically, which is why it's never been done before.
This is delusional
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