SpicyMilk · 18-21, F
any system that is build on endless growth is unsustainable and will collapse... thats an indisuptable fact
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NerdyPotato · M
@daydeeo true, but this is definitely one that is.
daydeeo · 61-69, M
@NerdyPotato "Indisputable"? Hardly.
NerdyPotato · M
@daydeeo this is long but worth a watch if you truly believe unlimited growth is possible:
[media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA9Hnp3aV4]
[media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA9Hnp3aV4]
NerdyPotato · M
DogMan · 61-69, M
@NerdyPotato Socialism does not work. I never has, and never will.
You are just pissing in the wind.
You are just pissing in the wind.
NerdyPotato · M
@DogMan pure socialism (aka communism) doesn't work, pure capitalism doesn't work either. It sounds like you found a good mix of them and I wish all businesses followed your suit.
GeniUs · 56-60, M
I haven't viewed any of the replies already posted so forgive me if I go over old ground:
as the capital stock of society increases, the productivity of labor rises, as well as wages and standards of living
I would call this out as the important wages, those of the lower waged do not see these increases in anything like the ratio of the increase in 'economic progress' indeed the standard of living of most people will have fallen whilst those toward the top of the earning scale will have seen the majority of improved finances and standard of living.that pursuing socialist and etatist (Statist?) policies will eventually lead to the consumption and reliance on old capital, borrowed capital, or printed "capital" as these policies cannot create any new capital
Absolutely wrong Socialism is a means of producing capital and using said capital to provide for the people which should be reflected by lower taxation. I'm afraid this 'von Mises' is pushing out propaganda to further the wealthy's grasp on society I could pick another couple of problems with his statement but I've provided enough for debate.@GeniUs Read my own comment
BohemianBabe · M
If you can't define Socialism, you can't criticize Socialism. 😝
ElwoodBlues · M
@BohemianBabe Too true! The OP's argument is also highly dependent on how you measure capital.
I didn't bother digging into the details of their definition, but I bet it doesn't include things like an educated workforce or a healthy workforce or clean air or clean water.
I didn't bother digging into the details of their definition, but I bet it doesn't include things like an educated workforce or a healthy workforce or clean air or clean water.
BohemianBabe · M
@ElwoodBlues Seriously. I hate how people will say China is doing well because it has one of the highest GDP scores in the world. Gross capital doesn't mean the average person is living well.
helenS · 36-40, F
@BohemianBabe I can't define porn, but I can criticize it...
helenS · 36-40, F
Since accumulation of capital is the basis for economic progress
Capital has almost never been the basis of economic progress. Or does Mr Mises really think technical progress in ancient Egypt, Greece, the Roman republic (leading, in each case, to astounding inventions and a corresponding increase of productivity) was a result of free entrepreneurship?? 😏Mises and the like simply confuse the evolution of forces of production with private ownership of these forces.
DogMan · 61-69, M
Capitalist vs. Socialist Economies: An Overview
Economic systems are structures that dictate how governments and societies create and distribute goods, services, and resources across a country. Two common economic systems are capitalism and socialism. In capitalist societies, the free market (and, therefore, supply and demand) determines production and pricing with no intervention of the government. In socialist economies, governments control production, distribution, and prices. The goal is to ensure that everyone has access to the same resources, such as education and healthcare.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
Capitalism and socialism are economic systems that countries use to manage their economic resources and regulate their means of production.
Capitalism is based on individual initiative and favors market mechanisms over government intervention.
Socialism is based on government planning and limitations on private control of resources.
Many economies tend to combine elements of both systems.
Capitalism has developed safety nets, while countries such as China and Vietnam may be edging toward full-fledged market economies.
Economic systems are structures that dictate how governments and societies create and distribute goods, services, and resources across a country. Two common economic systems are capitalism and socialism. In capitalist societies, the free market (and, therefore, supply and demand) determines production and pricing with no intervention of the government. In socialist economies, governments control production, distribution, and prices. The goal is to ensure that everyone has access to the same resources, such as education and healthcare.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
Capitalism and socialism are economic systems that countries use to manage their economic resources and regulate their means of production.
Capitalism is based on individual initiative and favors market mechanisms over government intervention.
Socialism is based on government planning and limitations on private control of resources.
Many economies tend to combine elements of both systems.
Capitalism has developed safety nets, while countries such as China and Vietnam may be edging toward full-fledged market economies.
NerdyPotato · M
@DogMan if you replace every occurrence of socialism with communism, that's spot on.
ElwoodBlues · M
Have we seen this argument before?


Convivial · 26-30, F
The only problem with the above is that the capital is being accumulated in the hands of fewer and fewer people... What is it now, around 70 % of the world's capital is in the hands of around 1% of the population?
Doesn't seem either fair or the basis for growth
Doesn't seem either fair or the basis for growth
ImperialAerosolKidFromEP · 51-55, M
@Convivial I wonder how they calculate that though. I once used an on-line tool to calculate my percentile wealth, and it came back as something ridiculously high, like the top 0.05%, but I don't have the same cost of living as everyone else, so that was misleading.
BizSuitStacy · M
As the saying goes...socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.
Richard65 · M
@DogMan that's good and a credit to you. But that wasn't the question. Bizsuit's insinuation was that socialism is bad because it relies on other people's money. I was simply pointing out that in 2008 the entire Western economy relied on public handouts (other people's money) to save its collective ass. Privatize the profits, socialize the debt.
DogMan · 61-69, M
@Richard65 But he was right. Socialism DOES rely on others money and hard work.
It does not accumulate wealth, it gives it away, with no way to repay.
Look at what happened to Venezuela. This is what happens when you have
socialism. Eventually you run out of money. You have to pay people well enough
to pay for those that will not, or can not, work. Eventually people will say, "Why work"
I get all I need from the government, I'll just keep taking, and not contribute.
It does not accumulate wealth, it gives it away, with no way to repay.
Look at what happened to Venezuela. This is what happens when you have
socialism. Eventually you run out of money. You have to pay people well enough
to pay for those that will not, or can not, work. Eventually people will say, "Why work"
I get all I need from the government, I'll just keep taking, and not contribute.
Richard65 · M
@DogMan again, that's not the point. I could argue that capitalism encourages unfettered exploitation of both the workforce and natural resources, lower wages and a reduction in quality of life. But the main issue was the idea that only socialism relies on other people's money, when 2008 showed the capitalist economy itself relied on a socialist bailout of trillions to save it from ruin and catastrophe. There's no debate about that, it's just a fact. In 2008 capitalism relied on a socialist ideal to survive intact.
@badminton Capitalism is so out of control it's not even funny.
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
A better question might be: Does Socialism actually exist anywhere other than in small, isolated communities?
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DogMan · 61-69, M
@DogMan If it's part of their culture and learned while growing up, it will be a part of their nature. There was a study done in the 70's into the 90's involving kids that were raised in communes, it showed them compared to kids not raised in them, the commune kids were nearly 100% involved with volunteering and community involvement, whereas the non commune kids were more of a hit or miss when asked to volunteer or get involved with their community. Another factor discovered with the non commune kids were the size of their communities and family involvement. However since Occupy Wall Street we are seeing more community involvement with youth, albeit the leaders are steering them down more malicious militant paths.
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QueenOfZaun · 26-30, F
I don’t think Socialism is inherently destructionist. Ideally you would want to combine capitalisms ability to generate large amounts of capital while simultaneously combining the more humanitarian aspects of socialism. Aka what Bernie Sanders has been trying to do.
@QueenOfZaun Except that Sanders is a sellout.
QueenOfZaun · 26-30, F
@NativePortlander1970 Okay?
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
Who will take care of roads, water, air, protect you from crime, poisonous substances??? Aren't those areas we depend upon a form of socialism for?
DogMan · 61-69, M
@samueltyler2 Everyone that drives, takes care of roads, through taxes, and fees. I have
5 cars. I pay a shitload of taxes and fees, but I can only drive one at a time. Have you
registered a new car lately?
5 cars. I pay a shitload of taxes and fees, but I can only drive one at a time. Have you
registered a new car lately?
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@DogMan but you pay it to the government which than takes care of the roads, water, etc. that is socialism! How do you define socialism if that isn't?
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
I think you mean the growth of capital . . the accumulation of capital in hands that cannot make efficient use of it (for example, housing wealth by retired people) is not at all productive.
WandererTony · 56-60, M
as the capital stock of society increases, the productivity of labor rises
This is an assumption and cannot be substantiated. Rather the reverse is true.
Theyitis · 36-40, M
Destructionism, refers to policies that consume capital but don’t accumulate it.
Who doesn’t accumulate it?
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@DogMan good for you, but, if you look at the history of occupational medicine come, and of the economics, I think there are many more robber barons.
DogMan · 61-69, M
@samueltyler2 Yes, there are people that game the system. I would like to see the
mega rich do more good things with their money, instead of wasting it. That includes
the mega rich entertainers that love their opulence.
mega rich do more good things with their money, instead of wasting it. That includes
the mega rich entertainers that love their opulence.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@DogMan so we do agree on that. The spread between administrative and worker income has expanded dramatically. That sort of thing help spawn the horror of industrial violence and even the rise of communism.
daydeeo · 61-69, M
I don't du disagree with you, but I wonder, why or how does the accumulation of capital increase productivity? Because it is invested in more efficient means of production?
DogMan · 61-69, M
@daydeeo Hi Daydeeo. Having capital, protects everyone.
I have owned my business for the last 21 years.
During the 2008 recession, and the years after, I relied on the capital I built
up, in order to save my business, and keep my people employed. People that did not
run a conservative style business did not survive. I knew many in my city. People
that lived lavish lifestyles, instead of building capital for their business, did not have
the funds to keep it running. Many used credit, only to fail later, because they could
not keep up with the interest.
Capital saved me again during Covid. I was able to keep all my employees on
a full time salary, while reducing hours, because I pay myself a modest salary
and put the rest into capital. When I reach a certain point, I give nice bonuses
to everyone, for doing such a great job.
I have owned my business for the last 21 years.
During the 2008 recession, and the years after, I relied on the capital I built
up, in order to save my business, and keep my people employed. People that did not
run a conservative style business did not survive. I knew many in my city. People
that lived lavish lifestyles, instead of building capital for their business, did not have
the funds to keep it running. Many used credit, only to fail later, because they could
not keep up with the interest.
Capital saved me again during Covid. I was able to keep all my employees on
a full time salary, while reducing hours, because I pay myself a modest salary
and put the rest into capital. When I reach a certain point, I give nice bonuses
to everyone, for doing such a great job.
HoraceGreenley · 61-69, M
Capitalism is the only choice
DogMan · 61-69, M
Meaning of destructionist in English
destructionist
noun [ C ]
someone who believes in destroying things, especially existing social, political, or economic structures:
Destructionists are using various means to destroy constructive projects, and to cause unrest and instability.
"Anarchist" is a term which is frequently wrongly applied to mere violent destructionists
destructionist
noun [ C ]
someone who believes in destroying things, especially existing social, political, or economic structures:
Destructionists are using various means to destroy constructive projects, and to cause unrest and instability.
"Anarchist" is a term which is frequently wrongly applied to mere violent destructionists
in10RjFox · M
Time has come for all Fiat currencies to die to be replaced by cashless eCurrencies. World currency must never belong to any nation. World Bank should have had its own $$$.
With that will end all of these isms
With that will end all of these isms
ImperialAerosolKidFromEP · 51-55, M
Considering that work is a good century old, I'd say either socialism changed or Von Mises was dead wrong
True Socialism builds up community, every member of that society has a part in it, everyone pulls their own weight and profits in it. The People own and operate all forms of commerce and run the government. Read the Preamble and the Bill of Rights close, the founding fathers endorsed and embraced real Socialism. We the People.
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