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What If Monty's "Operation Market Garden" Had Succeeded?

The ultimate goal of the operation has been deemed by historians as "a bridge too far" and perhaps it really was overly ambitious. But bad luck did play a role and if Market Garden had succeeded in all of its goals, the war in Europe perhaps ends by Christmas 1944, early January 1945 at the latest.

Berlin thus falls to combined American, British and Canadian forces; the Red Army is still fighting its way thru Poland, not having captured Waraw.

The Soviets would have still had an occupation zone in Berlin, but it would have been surrounded by western Allies' occupying forces and not the other way around. (So there's no Berlin Airlift necessary in 1948).

Since there would not have been any formal agreement with respects to the post-war borders of Poland (the Tehran Conference in November 1943 informally set the eastern border roughly along the Curzon Line of 1920 and not ratified until the Potsdam Conference of 1945), Poland emerges post-war with more of its pre-war territory intact. Although the Polish borders would likely have still been moved somewhat westward, the post-war Polish government would be the one that was in exile, not a communist one installed by the Soviets.

Nearly all of pre-war Czechoslovakia would be occupied by the western Allies after Germany's surrender, including Prague, as the Soviets hadn't begun their fighting into present day Slovakia until January 1945.

Perhaps up to one million Jews survive from the Nazi death camps, many of whom would immigrate to the newly formed state of Israel in 1948.

The first successful test of the atomic bomb was still a half a year away. But President Roosevelt is still alive and, with V-E Day having taken place before his 4th inaugural, he might not have been as hasty in negotating for Soviet help in dealing with Japan in February 1945 at Yalta with Germany now already defeated. Roosevelt may well have agreed for the return of South Sakhalin Island, which had been taken from Russia by Japan in the Russo-Japanese War in 1905, to the Soviets, but the cession of Kuril Islands once Japan was defeated might have been too much for Roosevelt's agreement.

WIth all of Germany occupied by the western Allies, the French zone of occupation is surely not going to be carved out of the U.S. and U.K. zones. It will be equal in size to that of the Soviets' zone. French leader General Charles de Gaulle is therefore almost certainly going to be invited to any post-war conference. It probably won't even be at Yalta, given Germany's rapid defeat.

Large numbers of U.S. troops are quickly heading to the Pacific, along with ships and aircraft. The fire-bombing of Tokyo likely happens two months sooner, weather permitting. Likewise, too, with the invasion of Okinawa. Iwo Jima falls in late January. With Germany's defeat, Japan is now suffering from nearly a two-fold intensity in air raids. Shore bombardment by U.S. and Royal Navy battleships happen in February 1945 instead of July and destroy the Japanese governments propaganda claims to its citizens of invicibility. All in all, Japan's precarious position is at a point now in late February or early March 1945 that it didn't actually reach until late July. Moreover, with or without any agreement on Soviet help to defeat Japan, Stalin abrogates the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact and the Red Army in February 1945 launches a massive attack against Japanese positions in Manchuria.

Would it still take two atomic bombs in August 1945 to shock Japanese military leaders to their senses? Or does President Roosevelt's abilities of personal persuasion get Emporer Hirohito to order the militarists to accept the Allies' demands for an unconditional surrender? Would the extra several months Vice President Harry Truman would have had of a world at peace have better prepared him for the presidency?

And if the war does end sooner, does the stress and fatigue of 12+ years in office and leading a nation at war for over three years still cause Roosevelt's fatal massive cerebral haemorrhage (or as some historians now speculate, from melanoma) at age 63 in April 1945? Or does he live a little longer, perhaps to learn of the successful atomic bomb test at Trinty?
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@calicuz
The war in the Pacific would have been over by the end September at the latest and American military leaders knew this.

There exists nothing to back up your premise. There is actually far more evidence in the opposite direction.

The Japanese government met after the Hiroshima bombing on whether to surrender and deadlocked.

The Army at first refused to even accept the destruction of Hiroshima as being the result of an atomic bomb. They wanted to conduct an investigation first. Naval leaders accepted the possibility, but doubted the U.S. had more than one or two bombs.

Of the "Big Six," three members advocated that Japan accept the Potsdam Declaration with the proviso that the imperial institution be retained: Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo, Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki and Navy Minister Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai. Three were opposed: Army Minister General Korechika Anami and the Chiefs of Staff of the Army, General Yoshijiro Umezu, and Navy, Admiral Soemu Toyoda. Under their own laws, a unanimous decision was needed.

Then came word of the Soviet declaration of war and of the bombing of Nagaski.

Army Chief of Staff Umezu characterized Soviet entry as "unfavorable" but it was pointed out that the Soviets had little sea-lift capacity so any threat of an invasion of the Japanese home islands by the Soviets was practically non-existent.

Army Minister General, Gen. Anami said, "Would it not be wondrous for this whole nation to be destroyed like a beautiful flower?"

It took the Emperor to intercede and order a surrender. Even then, there were some militarists who later launched an attack on the Emperor's palace in an attempt to destroy the recording the Emperor made for the Japanese people hearing him explain that the country but "bear the unbearable" (with some Japanese leaders believing that the Emporer might even been assassinated in order to prevent announcing a surrender).

Had it not been for the atomic bombs, the war council would not even have met in August, let alone discuss the possibility of accepting the Allies demand of unconditional surrender.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@beckyromero People forget that after the 2nd bomb, the Japanese government was split. Half wanting to surrender and half wanting to continue fighting.

The Emperor broke the tie. That night a coup was attempted by the hard liners to overthrow the government to prevent the Emperor from surrendering. The coup was put down but I think it is important to remember one was attempted.

This was not a country ready to give up the fight.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@HoraceGreenley
People forget that after the 2nd bomb, the Japanese government was split. Half wanting to surrender and half wanting to continue fighting.

The Emperor broke the tie. That night a coup was attempted by the hsrd linets to overthrow the government to prevent the Emperor from surrendering. The coup was put down but I think it is important to remember one was attempted.

This was not a country ready to give up the fight.

Thank you! EXACTLY

I doubt that most people who make up fanciful notions that Japan would have surrended without the droppings of the atomic bombs even know that there was an attempted military coup to stop the surrender announcement.

(Don't know why I don't have the 'best answer' option, but yours would be it. Probably because it needs to be in the first tier answers is my guess.)
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@beckyromero Thanks. I agree. And given the way WWI ended, only an unconditional surrender would be tolerated.
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
Market garden was a daring attempt but one of those ideas based without sufficient intelligence.

The allies were under the impression (or certainly the Americans were) that Belgium was being defended by 'Old men and kids'.
That phrase is mentioned in several American military units re-telling of the war in Europe. Not least by the 506 Infantry Regiment.

The parachute Infantry Regiment had had amazing successes dropping in behind enemy lines and then fighting their way toward a goal and in so doing opening corridors for others to come through.

Unfortunately there were insufficient additions to enable this to happen. So the allies couldn't cut the fuel lines nor the food and ammunition supplies and so the whole thing fell apart.

Had it been successful......who knows. The rest is moot.

Even D-Day. When you think about it, was based on the idea that paratroopers could be dropped behind enemy lines and destroy the huge concrete bunkers overlooking the beaches thus enabling craft to land safely and troops to advance along the beaches into Europe.

But much of that fell apart because the planes were taking fire from the ground and the pilots panicked and issued the 'Jump-light' to the Paratroopers too early thus scattering all their sticks into the wind and miles from the intended target.

Much as it's horrible to have to admit, a lot of the success of D-Day was down to sheer weight of numbers and to some extent the element of surprise thanks to fog shrouding everything for days before.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Picklebobble2 Sheer weight of numbers is almost always the winner in war. The Americans simply replaced the men and the equipment and kept coming. Even in this current human disaster between Israel and Hamas, the missile defence shield Israel was so proud of was defeated by the sheer volume of rockets launched in volley after volley..Just keep sending them until the other side runs out..😷
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@whowasthatmaskedman

Israel knows the "Iron Dome" is not a perfect defense.

A "perfect defense" would have been to blast the rocket-launching sites out of existence. But we both know what that would have meant. Israel's failure was not so much the "Iron Dome" but not maintaining adequate defenses to shoot down para-gliding terrorists out of the skies and stop breaches of the border by armed terrorists.

But when an adversary shields itself among its civilian population, you have to decide whether the lives of your civilians are worth the same or less than those of your adversaries.

If the current group-think of the media and academics in the West who are attacking Israel's policies now had prevailed in World War II, those of us who might be alive would either be goose-stepping or drinking sake.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@beckyromero Now my reply here should in no way be taken as my moral opinon of what is happening here. But from a strategic viewpoint, using Game Theory as a means of selecting tactics I am positive that the Israelis have worked out that emptying Gaza completely and leveling it, destroying everything including the tunnels is the best alternative. After that, they can either put their own people in. Or vet selected Palestinians back in with a Marshall plan type rebuild, to be positive only the "right people" get back..😷
krf336 · M
If everything had gone perfectly, things might have turned out exactly as they planned and you laid out.
But plans NEVER go as planned, especially in war so there is no way to predict how things would have played out.
The german counter offensive in france in late 1944 might have been successfull because the 101st AB would be in belguim or the Netherlands instead of Bastogne. They would then be able to hold pattons 3rd Army in the south. Or they might have realized deployed their forces in the west and forced a treaty with russia.
There a thousand unknowables. It is a fun mental exercise though.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@krf336
You can disagree with my use of the word "counteroffensive," thats fine.

It isn't just a matter of disagreement. You simply don't know the facts.

You stated that "The german counter offensive in france in late 1944 might have been successfull because the 101st AB would be in belguim or the Netherlands instead of Bastogne."

There was no "German counter offensive in France in late 1944."

The Germans attacked thru the Ardennes. As I previously pointed out, the parts of the Ardennes Forest where the Germans attacked is in BELGIUM, not "France."

And I find it hilarious that you name-dropped the "101st Airborne Division" in an effort to show some knowledge about the Battle of the Bulge - while at the time speculating the Germans might have otherwise have been successful if "the 101st AB would be in Belguim... instead of Bastogne.

Just where the hell do you think Bastogne is exactly?

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Sorry, but when you lob a softball like that down the middle of the plate you SHOULD expect it to be crushed. Still, use this as an opportunity to learn more about the Battle of the Bulge.
krf336 · M
@beckyromero ok, bastogne was in belguim, i clearly had that wrong. But before the 101st was sent in there they were participating in market garden. So they were in the north. So during the attack. They would not have been there.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@krf336

If Operation Market Garden had been successful, with Allied troops pouring into northern Germany, the war might have very well been over by Christmas 1944, in which case the Ardennes would not have needed to be defended.

But it WAS defended - and would have been defended in any case IF it was still part of the front lines.

The reason why elements of the U.S. First Army were there instead of someplace else was principally to give its soldiers a rest while still being in a position to defend that area, if necessary.

It was actually the 28th Infantry Division that was delaying the approaches to Bastogne. The 101st Airborne was being held in reserve and was ordered into Bastogne and arrived mere hours before the German seige began. The 101st wasn't at the front and the rest and recooperation being given to its troops was because of constant fighting it had been involved in since D-Day (including Market Garden).

But, here's the important point. If Market Garden was a success, where would the Allies have been?

The solid red arrow at the centre of this map represents the intended, ultimate advances by Allied ground forces, as a result of Operation Market Garden. (Map source: HMSO, UK, c. 1968/69.)

The Allies would have been in the Ruhr Valley, with the First Army advancing past Cologne. Gen. Patton's Third Army was already racing towards the German West Wall. In otherwords, the Ardennes would not have been on the front lines in December 1944 had Market Garden been a success.

Montgomery and Patton both had huge egos and both felt themselves as the person who should lead the main assault into Germany. But they both had the same principle idea: a massive thrust into Germany and towards Berlin to end the war quickly. Eisenhower, although he grudgingly approved Market Garden, felt differently and wanted a broad push across the whole front.
calicuz · 56-60, M
It actually didn't take the dropping of the bombs on Japan to "shock the Japanese military leaders to their senses." The war in the Pacific would have been over by the end September at the latest and American military leaders knew this.
The dropping of the bombs was nothing more than a live human experiment to gauge the actual affects of a nuclear explosion on life and habitat.
They didn't need to drop those bombs for any other reason. 😞
krf336 · M
@calicuz Of course they planned an invasion, that was always the plan. That was the entire reason we were island hopping across the pacific.
They also discussed being in berlin by christmas 1944. The realities of war are that you plan for the best, but expect the worst. Of course they are hoping for that, but the japanes held onto islands to the last man and battles dragged on for months. They were bombing mainland japan and they were still refusing to surrender. Pockets of surviving japanese soldiers were hiding on many islands we had already taken, to sneak out at night and still coming out to kill anericans. They were warning the civilian population to arm themselves and prepare to kill the invaders.
They dropped them to save lives.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@krf336
The invasion of the Japanese Home Islands was estimated to cost 1 million allied casualties and 10 million Japanese casualties.
krf336 · M
@HoraceGreenley yes, which is why they opted to drop the Nukes instead.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
As yet there is no computer even able to formulate the problems you pose. Let alone solve them for an answer to your questions.... However, Montgomery had a reputation as solid, methodical planner and and specialised in steady supported advances. (Slow compared to some) Market Garden was known to have been thrown together in weeks and made more complex by different nationalities being involved. So the stage was set for it to underachieve. The next layer of complexity appears in that the resources the Germans did have to move to stall Market Garden did have a knock on effect elsewhere on the two fronted war Germany was fighting.. In the end the outcome becomes unknowable. Did the Eastern front collapse faster because those german troops tied up by Market Garden couldnt be sent??😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@beckyromero True. But would that offensive have taken place if the allies were already in Germany? Its all unknowable..😷
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@whowasthatmaskedman

If the Allies were in northern Germany, troops would have been trying to save Berlin.

Hitler would not have been ordering a winter offensive with troops he didn't have while his own ass was on the line.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@beckyromero In all probability..But we will never know. Hitler was not above ordering troops he no longer had to attack..😷
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
There's no way to know obviously. It's interesting conjecture however.

I think that there would not have been a Battle of the Bulge as you suggest.
Thank you. That was really interesting and food for thought 🙏
Jimbo7 · M
What if Hitler had took notice of his Generals
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@Jimbo7

Field Marshall Walter Model would have probably been blamed for the Allies success with Market Garden and a bridgehead over the Rhine, hastening his own demise long before April 1945.
Bumbles · 51-55, M
Some say Monty took it a bridge too far.

 
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