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I'm curious to hear what trans people and allies think of trans women in women sports.

To me this seems like an area where we really do have to differentiate between a biological woman and a trans woman in the name of fair competition.

What do you think?
Is there any science which would disconfirm this position?

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BohemianBoo · M

I agree with the position that most professional sports leagues have taken. Biological males do have an advantage over biological females. However, after a year on HRT, trans women no longer have an advantage over cis women. And that's only for trans women who have gone through male puberty. There are some exceptions depending on the sport, so some leagues require two years of HRT, but generally speaking, one year is enough to eliminate any advantages for a post-puberty trans woman.

Also, the narrative that trans women are totally dominating women's sports is a bullshit myth. To this day, not a single trans woman has won olympic gold. This shows that the regulations are working.
The only unregulated sports leagues are in schools, where it's just kids playing for fun. If someone has a problem with trans girls playing against cis girls in a non-professional friendly setting, I don't know, maybe get fucked.

I do wonder if all this HRT is giving trans women an unfair advantage in music, though. Ayesha Erotica, Ethel Cain, Kim Petras, why are trans chicks making so many bangers?

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo 'The only unregulated sports leagues are in schools, where it's just kids playing for fun'.

That's so short-sighted. Sport is competition, at any level. If you're a junior or college female athlete and are put up against a trans person... it's happening in running, in swimming, in cycling... and despite how ever hard you try, you cannot compete with the biological advantage, how many girls and women just quit sport? There have been examples where girls have missed out on scholarships or qualification for other events by finishing (ie) 7th, 8th, 9th instead of 4th, 5th, 6th because males with a 'gender identity' have been allowed in. It's not all about gold medals or first place.

This person won the women's age 50-59 category in a 5k in Canada. With a time of 16.30. It's not the Olympics, but don't the women in that race deserve fair competition?

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels [quote]There have been examples where girls have missed out on scholarships or qualification for other events by finishing (ie) 7th, 8th, 9th instead of 4th, 5th, 6th because males with a 'gender identity' have been allowed in.[/quote]

Source?

I find this unlikely because sports recruiters understand the regulations in professional leagues.

Also, when I said "I agree with the position that most professional sports leagues have taken," I was referring to the ones in America and international ones like the Olympics. If Canada doesn't have those regulations, then they should.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo Here's the story I was referring to -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2023/05/31/runner-chelsea-mitchell-who-lost-to-trans-athletes-this-is-about-fairness/amp/

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels The NY Post is fake news.

I looked up this story to see if there's any truth to is, and it turns out Mitchell actually lost to several cis girls too. So her narrative that she's the “fastest girl in Connecticut,” but she keeps getting screwed over by trans girls is bullshit. And she also beat the trans girl that she once lost too.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/06/15/athlete-sues-connecticut-chelsea-mitchell/

This is such a non-story, but one of the cornerstones of modern Conservatism is transphobia.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo I knew you'd find some reason to disregard it 🤣
First, 'it doesn't happen'. Then 'it happened but it doesn't count'. There's plenty more that I'll save myself the bother of looking for as you will just excuse it all away.

What do you think of the other example I gave, the 50-59 race?

There was a marathon in the US that has started awarding prize money for entrants in men's, women's, and 'non-binary' category. What do you think the top 10 runners in the non-binary category looked like, do you think they were all 'assigned male at birth', or 'assigned female at birth'? Sport should only be segregated by sex and for things like boxing, weight lifting etc, weight class. For obvious reasons.

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels [quote]First, 'it doesn't happen'. Then 'it happened but it doesn't count'[/quote]

The claim you made is that cis girls are losing scholarships to trans girls because they're allowed to compete in the same sporting competitions. Then the evidence you gave me was [b]one[/b] case, and in that case the cis girl lost a bunch of races to other cis girls. Her narrative that she's the fastest, but she only loses to "biological men," is a [b]lie.[/b]

So far, you've been unable to give me any evidence that this is something that regularly happens, if it ever happened at all.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo ?

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels Did that person get a scholarship over a cis woman, like you claimed?

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo We're not going to agree on it, you clearly don't see it as a problem. And of course that story is sensationalised but the point isn't that a transwoman would win every single race, but their inclusion has a detrimental effect on every other female in the race. Again, you won't think that it does and we are just at very different sides on this so there's no point continuing to talk it over.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo No, I just found it curious how you didn't address that part of my post, at the first or second time of asking.

Is that 'trans inclusion' fair on the other runners, would you say?

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels No, but I don't care if it's just a friendly competition. If it's a professional competition or something of value is at stake, like a scholarship, then I think trans women shouldn't be allowed unless they've been on HRT for at least a year.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo It's easy for you not to care as you're not the one being disadvantaged. It might not be the same as an olympic gold but women want to compete and have a chance at doing their best with fair competition, at any level. I appreciate this has been a reasonable and fair conversation and that's your honest answer so thanks for that at least.

Even if you think it's a price worth paying, I just wish it was acknowledged that there ARE credible arguments being made, that aren't just dismissed as 'hate'. I feel for the women who turned up to that race with zero chance of finishing first. And then, what if there were two 'trans identifying' men running? Or three, or four... they get pushed further out and discouraged from taking part all together.

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels [quote] I just wish it was acknowledged that there ARE credible arguments being made, that aren't just dismissed as 'hate'.[/quote]

Like 90% of the time, this is just concern trolling. I really don't think anyone cares about trans girls competing against cis girls in something like a friendly race for charity or whatever.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo No, that's the problem. Women's sport isn't seen as important enough to care about or protect and those who are concerned aren't taken seriously.

I'm a person who cares. I assure you there are many more people who care. Even taking your plucked from the air statistic at face value, if 90% of the time it's trolling, what about the 10%? As I say, whether you agree or not they deserve more than being waved away and told 'nobody cares'. Anyway, thanks for a not terrible conversation. I have other things to do now.

BohemianBoo · M

@helsbels [quote]No, that's the problem. Women's sport isn't seen as important enough to care about or protect and those who are concerned aren't taken seriously.[/quote]

As I already explained, there are regulations in professional orgs in order to keep women's sports as fair as possible.
It's funny, the people who used to make fun of how nobody cares about women's sports are now the people pretending to care about women's sports in order to attack trans people. It's concern trolling by chickenshit transphobes.

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo I'm attacking nobody, but if it's transphobic to say this person is a man who should be racing other men, as are the many other men competing as women because they put lipstick and a crop top on, then I happily accept the label. There's 'being kind', and there's just plain insanity and I will tell the emporer he's wearing no clothes.

Thankfully sports and organisations across the world ARE starting to listen and segregate trans competitors by making 'open' categories and I welcome it. No-one should be turned away from playing sport but inclusion can't come at the price of fairness.

https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/other-sports/news/15264/12921233/uci-to-ban-transgender-women-from-participating-in-female-cycling-events-under-new-policy

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/sport/transgender-women-british-rowing-intl-scli-spt-gbr/index.html

DogMan · 61-69, M

@BohemianBoo So all media that doesn't follow the Woke narrative, is Fake News?

DogMan · 61-69, M

@BohemianBoo It sounds to me that you are a Misogynist. You do not care about women or girls
at all. You Pro-Trans folks could care less about women, or their feelings.

DogMan · 61-69, M

@helsbels You are correct, no one is calling out Trans women in sports that do not
required strength and speed. It is about fairness.

They don't allow steroids, why? what if a man identifies as a man
much stronger than what he was born with? He should be able to take steroids so it is fair,
right? I know this may sound Ludacris, but it is the same theory.

BohemianBoo · M

@DogMan [quote]So all media that doesn't follow the Woke narrative, is Fake News?[/quote]

Depends what you mean by "the woke narrative." Is that just reality?

[quote]It sounds to me that you are a Misogynist. You do not care about women or girls
at all. You Pro-Trans folks could care less about women, or their feelings.[/quote]

How does trans people having civil rights take any civil rights from anyone else?

ElwoodBlues · M

@DogMan [quote]So all media that doesn't follow the Woke narrative, is Fake News?[/quote]
I think it's really revealing to see how conservatives define 'Woke' when they're under oath:

helsbels · 26-30, F

@BohemianBoo Look at the size difference of 'Kylie' (Kyle) Small here. What amount of hrt is going to negate the fact that a woman is going to have to take 5 paces for every one of theirs? Pedal that much more/harder, expend so much more energy to cover the same distance? This person was entering mens races as recently as April this year. Now come September/October they are taking podium spots from women.