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Thoughts on white people having to pay slavery reparations?

Poll - Total Votes: 96
Yes, they should- it's only fair, and an equalizer
No, that makes no sense and is stupid asf
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Probably gonna delete this post if my notifications are going off for forever. But rn I'm interested and in a drama kinda mood lmao.
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BlueVeins · 22-25
First of all, I'm going to steelman this by assuming you meant, "Should the [i]government[/i] pay slavery reparations to descendants of slaves." The idea of all white people paying is broadly incoherent, because not all white people's ancestors perpetrated slavery, and also you can't inherit debt from your ancestors. The government, however, did perpetrate slavery, and has continuously existed from the Civil War to the 21st century.

There are two dominating perspectives on this and both of them are brain damaged. The first perspective is that no descendants of slaves should receive any money because they, themselves were never treated unfairly, and that the crime of slavery essentially died with its victims over the years. This perspective is flawed because it ignores the existence of generational wealth.

If a person's parents are wealthier, then those parents are more likely to buy a good education and a stable and healthy environment for their child's development, as well as things like high-end clothing and transportation which are important for getting a good job. In addition, when those parents die, they will pass on their remaining wealth as inheritance. All of this means that parents of rich kids are more likely to be rich themselves. Slaves were dirt poor at the time of their liberation, so generational wealth has worked against those people and their kin, all the way to the current day. It is preposterous to ignore the fact that slavery hurts contemporary black descendants of slaves in this way.

The second dominating perspective is that descendants of slaves should be given either a lump sum payment or an annuity to make up for this generational wealth divide. This idea is brain-damaged because it legitimizes the institution of generational wealth, itself. Black people have definitely gotten the short end of the stick here on average, but obviously, wealth varies more within a race than between races (i.e. difference between the richest white person & poorest white person is greater than the difference between the average black person & the average white person).

Imagine three children -- one is the child of an impoverished former slave, one is the child of an impoverished gambling addict, and one is the child of a wealthy doctor. Obviously among the three parents of the kids, the first is clearly the most mistreated by society. But is the second child any more deserving of his plight than the first child just because his parent was dumb? He didn't do anything to deserve it, himself. Clearly, the most fair situation would for the two impoverished children to both be uplifted... and perhaps, the third child to give up some of his advantage over the other two.

Moreover, the idea of simply giving people money to fix the gap really underestimates the scope of the problem. White people own the vast majority of stocks, [i]wildly[/i] disproportionate to their population size, hiring decisions in businesses overwhelmingly favor white people over black people, and majority-black areas suffer chronic underinvestment and inadequate government representation. Black people are also less likely to have a higher education, and are less likely to own a home than white people. If you give black people a lump sum of cash without first fixing the systemically racist social systems we live under, they'll be forced to spend it on consumer goods, in turn transferring the wealth the government just handed them back to white people. Within a few decades, the world goes back to normal, with a "lucky" generation having gotten the social equivalent of a lottery win. Also, any black person who wasn't a former slave will totally get the shaft because their ancestors will have also lost wealth as a consequence of things like redlining and Jim Crow.

If we want to fix the scars that slavery & other policies have left on our country, we need a more transformative, and frankly, less Liberal solution. We need to roll back all these exclusionary housing rules that are driving up rents in the inner cities, route more government money into majority black areas, change our electoral system to give black people more of a voice (D.C. statehood would help with this a lot), set stricter standards for police use of force, open up the process for class action lawsuits on employment discrimination, and so, so much more.
Rhode57 · 56-60, M
@BlueVeins Well put mate you make some very valid points .
Chickie · F
@BlueVeins well said underrated comment
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
Excellent analysis. @BlueVeins
LeeInTheNorthWoods · 70-79, F
@BlueVeins You certainly raise some thoughtful and valid points. However, you don't seem to include anything about civil rights laws, anti-redlining laws, affirmative action, and special programs for minorities that have been in effect for more than 65 years now.

I live in a state, Michigan, where an inordinate amount of state funds goes to a few metropolitan areas that have large minority populations. I'm not saying that's unfair, but I am asking why this reality doesn't seem to be recognized and discussed. If these expenditures/programs are not bringing about positive results, evaluating and changing the programs is a better answer than just demanding more programs.

I operated a business for many years and people often are surprised to learn about the federal, state, and local equal opportunity laws and policies that regulate nearly every aspect of business operations (hiring, promotions, purchasing, vendors/suppliers, etc.).

Many of us are concerned when we hear about growing achievement gaps among elementary and high school students of various racial/ethnic groups. Are there any current efforts that are succeeding in slowing or reducing this unfortunate and frightening trend?

I believe most Americans regrettably would say we area country in which racial divisions are growing. Cash handouts don't seem to me to be a wise method of solving any of the real world problems we have. My thought anyway. I'm certainly willing to listen to new and hopeful ideas.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@LeeInTheNorthWoods Once you get into the weeds on this issue, it's complicated as all Hell. From what I'm reading right now, the state did actually instate per-pupil funding at the state level, which is good obviously, but payments didn't keep up with inflation, resulting in a real-terms decline over the years. As I'm sure you know, the main reason why education funding is so unfair throughout most of the US is that schools are funded primarily with property taxes, which are obviously much lower in poorer areas. I'd need to see a shit ton of statistics that I'm having trouble finding in order to come up with a decent answer on this (breakdown of state, local, federal funding; per pupil total funding, average proficiency by race over time, etc). It can be a little tricky to gauge these kinds of things because of the ways statistics are presented.

Frankly, I think you should ask someone [i]much[/i] more qualified than me for answers on this. I will caution though, that one of the biggest reasons why poor people in general struggle in education, generally, is because of a lack of stability at home. Getting equal funding for a kid's education is gonna help them on balance as opposed to doing nothing, but they're going to struggle to capitalize on that benefit if they're not consistently well-fed, their family can't afford adequate healthcare, and the home they live in is too small to be peaceful. These are pieces of the puzzle that have to be addressed if we want to seriously tackle these problems.

And of course, we also need to consider the fact that more well-off kids get pre-K, while less well-off kids do not. This might be a decent place to start if you're looking for something simple, concrete, and relatively surefire.

https://nieer.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/NIEER-AchievementGaps-report.pdf
BlueVeins · 22-25
@LeeInTheNorthWoods Going off this national map of school funding per capita, it kinda looks like racial minorities are still getting the short end of the stick in Michigan.


https://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474256366/why-americas-schools-have-a-money-problem
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@LeeInTheNorthWoods Michigan is one of the most racist states in the Union. Just about all of its towns were sundown towns. https://justice.tougaloo.edu/location/michigan/

The racists destroyed Detroit rather than let Blacks participate in its economic life.
LeeInTheNorthWoods · 70-79, F
@Diotrephes Detroit is a perfect example of what happens when the tax base of a city or state erodes (or flees) because of government policies and mismanagement. There has been a black major of Detroit since Coleman Young was elected in 1974 -- almost 50 years ago. (Kwayme Kilpatrick was reelected mayor even though he had been indicted for crimes for which he later served prison time, with graft going to various family members.) The city council has been dominated by blacks for 50 years. What has the government done to help its citizens? Its school children? What policies were/are in effect to hold onto businesses and jobs?

Look at what is happening in Chicago right now. Of course, some of the problems are the result of racism, but other problems are more predominant. People are fleeing cities like New York, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles that had strong tax bases and diverse populations.

Detroit Public Schools are a textbook example of inept management and corruption. I'm sure you can find online news reports of scandals like the Allstate Sales fiasco where DPS administrators were taking bribes from a school supply company. The Detroit school system has been rife with corruption for decades.

I choose to ignore any information that comes from NPR, but in the U.S., education funding is principally based on local taxes -- so a city Detroit that has lost population because of government mismanagement and factors like dangerous schools (not just bad, but dangerous), lagging city services, etc., it's tax base erodes. More and more funds have flooded into Detroit from federal and state governments to make up for dwindling local resources. (By the way, Detroit is an excellent example of a school system top heavy with highly paid administrators taking dollars away from classrooms.) But people and businesses are not going to stay in the city.

When Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, was governor and the state legislature was majority Democrat in 2009, the state took over the operations of the Detroit Public Schools, responding to the mess that existed at the time. No improvement resulted.

In the 1970s, there were more than 270,000 students in Detroit Public Schools. Now there are about 40,000.

Anyway. . . that's Detroit and it's public schools. You easily can verify everything I've said here.
@LeeInTheNorthWoods I'm sorry. Maybe I'm confused. I haven't had my morning caffeine fix yet. But what I'm reading here is that you literally think Detroit is in the condition it's in because black people? Is that right?
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@LeeInTheNorthWoods I agree with you. There are countless bad actors in all spheres, each doing his own bad deeds with the cumulative effect that the whole system is destroyed. And that is what some people want to happen and they engineer things to make it happen. In the case of Detroit, they used a club and hatchet. Chicago is doing the same thing but using a velvet glove to get the same results. The intent is to do ethnic cleansing and force the Black people out. Of course Black people aid and abet that effort It has always been that way and will continue down that path until the desired results have been achieved.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
Parents made decisions that dropped school enrollment from 270K to 40K. Why did the parents do that? Has the school district or city been smart enough to sell the empty buildings prior to them depreciating in value to much and using the processed so provide better education for the remaining 40K including paying more to get better more qualified and motivated teachers among many things? Have they made sure the the remaining 40K attend the best buildings among all the choices with the least mold and asbestos? @LordShadowfire
@jackjjackson I don't see what that has to do with my question.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
What I wrote is relevant to this thread unlike your racist “hot take” 😳 @LordShadowfire
@jackjjackson Why does every racist on this website insist on calling me a racist?
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
1. Calling me a racist based on my accurate comment re the Detroit public school system is false and juvenile

2. If “every person” considers you a racist based on your behavior then you are a racist and you may choose to embrace and revel in it or you may self reflect and study and figure it out. @LordShadowfire
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@jackjjackson Every single time I point out racist behavior in another user, there you are, accusing me of being the fucking racist. How the fuck am I racist for pointing out other people's racism?
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Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@LordShadowfire [quote]Every single time I point out racist behavior in another user, there you are, accusing me of being the fucking racist. How the fuck am I racist for pointing out other people's racism?[/quote]

Remember Paul's whine in Roman's 1:28-32 (VOICE) =
"28 Since they had no mind to recognize God, He turned them loose to follow the unseemly designs of their depraved minds and to do things that should not be done. 29 Their days are filled with all sorts of godless living, wicked schemes, greed, hatred, endless desire for more, murder, violence, deceit, and spitefulness. And, as if that were not enough, they are gossiping, 30 slanderous, God-hating, rude, egotistical, smug people who are always coming up with even more dreadful ways to treat one another. They don’t listen to their parents; 31 they lack understanding and character. They are simple-minded, covenant-breaking, heartless, and unmerciful; they are not to be trusted. 32 Despite the fact that they are fully aware that God’s law says this way of life deserves death, they fail to stop. And worse—they applaud others on this destructive path."

Notice how Paul accuses other people of the very behavior that he is displaying toward them. He thinks that he, himself, is perfect and without fault and therefore capable of judging everyone's behavior.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
That epic passage likely went straight over his racist head. @Diotrephes
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Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
@BlueVeins In response to your original comment, it is a welcome relief to read some intelligent discussion in this topic.