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JSul3 · 70-79
It was about states rights....the 'states right' to own other human beings, and enslaving them.
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
@JSul3 Basically, yes -- though the Southern non-slave-owners seem to have decided secession was worth fighting for, too. Possibly because they feared losing what power they had a whites?

ArishMell · 70-79, M
Very chilling reading. Very chilling indeed, even if you try to see it as they may have done, beyond our 21C social mores.

It is very difficult to understand the motives behind past wrongs in times and cultures so very different in many ways to our own. That is one reason why trying to extort spurious "apologies" from countries centuries later is so meaningless. The intended apologisers know their ancestors did wrong, but no amount of ceremonial grovelling will achieve anything very useful.

However, those Confederacy texts are also chilling if you compare the philosophy behind them to more modern acts of suppression, from those of the Nazis in the 1930s-40s, the old Boer-based regime in South Africa, and of the Chinese Government currently against its Uighurs. It's as well to recall too that some US states clung to old apartheid laws until quite late in the 20C - though at least repealing them did not need go as far as South Africa, with a radical change of national governance. (S.Africa's old regime was nearly as mysoginist as racist, a point not often recognised, but told to me by white women who had lived there.)

There is not that much difference in the minds of those responsible even if the ideologies and methods are vastly different - all show an absolutist view of their own supremacy and rightness, based on thinking twisted to evade responsibility.

A lesson to be learnt now, facing the rise of assorted racial- and sexual- supremecist ideologies in the USA and Western Europe. To stem them though, we need understand their attraction to their followers, despite being hampered by those who cannot or will not differentiate between "understanding" and "condoning".

'

Interesting as well as chilling, the different States' own thinking, though the common thread appears that of feeling oppressed by a remote government that - in their view - was exceeding its powers over States it did not understand.

South Carolina made those political fears plain.

Georgia seemed uncertain. Its document rejects the Northerners' avowal of the -
equality of the black and white races
,
then unwittingly but ironically refers to the,
ancient right of themselves and the human race
.
It almost seems the Georgians were reluctant to admit that by their common view the latter clause really means "white", not "human", race.

Texas could only shuffle its responsibility off onto the shoulders of poor old God.

Mississippi was at least honest: its motive was money, money, and more money.

+

When things did boil over into the Civil War, the abolitionists received a lot of support in kind from Great Britain, which had originally supported slavery but was already turning against it. A lot of Mississippi-area cotton was exported to the Northern English textiles manufacturers, but many of these companies now started boycotting slave-cultivated cotton. Whatever was the commercial effect on the State, that did hit the English weaving firms and their employees hard, but helped Britain to be among the first in the "Old World" at least, to abolish slavery altogether.
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ArishMell · 70-79, M
@ArishMell @Kwek00

I did not write that reply beginning:

Very chilling reading. Very chilling indeed, even if you try to see it as they may have done, beyond our 21C social mores.

It has my name on it and I agree with its message, but who wrote it?

It was not me!
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Carla · 61-69, F
So, do you reckon any of the morons that deny historic fact will read this? And if they do, do you reckon they will read into it just only what the first phrase of your first paragraph states?
After a hundred and fifty years, those that refuse to accept facts, have a definite agenda. And we all know what that is.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Carla I'm just tired of looking this up every time some of these people pop up. Now I can just copy paste it from here. Makes life a bit easier.

If they read it, that's great. If they don't, then I hope someone else reads it. To be honest, I think there is too little understanding of this time and knowledge of these texts. And in that ignorance, snake oil salesmen can do their stuff. So if one person reads this and gets educated. That's already a win for me.
Carla · 61-69, F
Well @Kwek00, I do certainly appreciate your effort.

It was an interesting read by the way.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Carla I kinda love going through these things. Thomas Jeffersons "on virginia" is an intresting one too.
deadgerbil · 26-30, M
It's amazing how this is still a debate. Goes to show the failings of American education.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@deadgerbil No shit
Ynotisay · M
@deadgerbil But is it really a debate? I don't see it. Debates typically require two valid, provable sides. That's not this.
Thanks for doing that! Seems a good place to park this little meme too:


https://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/79193-So-Youre-Against-Immigration-When-Do-You-Leave-.jpg
ArishMell · 70-79, M
Chilling words.

It's notable that in their desperation to treat the Africans as their untermenschen - I use that word deliberately, given its origins in a 20C regime with rather similar ideas - they even stooped to regarding themselves as following God's will. In hindsight we might well see that as anti-Christian and cowardly; but those 19C writers would not and could not have seen that.

Only one of those States had the vague courage to admit the main reason for slavery was merely commercial. The idea that the "negroes" could be employed fairly as farm labourers, not kept as slaves, would have been abhorrent to them because that would add to the business overheads - as well as denting their racial prejudices. Nothing to do with humanity, and many slave-owners were routinely extremely cruel beyond the cruelty of slavery itself.

Texas says it abandoned its
separate national existence
and joined the Confederacy to further its own slave-ownership. Mississippi claims a peculiar link between race and withstanding its regional, sub-tropical climate. A more general objection to the Federal abolitionists though appears to be of these States wanting not to lose governmental power to the USA as a whole.

For the most part though the Confederates openly supported maintaining slavery merely on an appalling idea we now call "white supremacy" - an idea that lingered in some States' apartheid laws until as recently as the 1960s.

''''

Britain had used slaves too, in her colonies rather than in Britain itself, and some of her industrialists made a lot of money from slave-trading in the 18C. However it slowly dawned on the country just how evil is slavery, and powerful efforts to end it started in the late 18C. Slavery became abolished by law by two Acts of Parliament, in 1807 then 1833; the young USA was still arguing, then fighting, over it in the 1860s .

Even so, the UK Government and Parliament has had to reinforce the 1807 and 1833 Acts as recently as 2015 against what it called "Modern Slavery", when it was discovered that immigrants, especially illegal ones, were ending up as slaves in private households and black-economy businesses - both themselves largely among the immigrant community even where the slave-owners themselves are here legally. A lot of that seems to have strong cultural backgrounds; the enslavers themselves being from societies less concerned with human rights and humane ideals. These are very difficult offences to act against, but there have been a few successful prosecutions.

The 2015 Act is against

1.Slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour

2.Human trafficking


[Source:
legislation.gov.uk
; the official web-site.

So with the UK had outlawed slavery decades previously to the above arguments in America. During the American Civil War, the huge cotton-weaving trade in the North of England supported at considerable cost to itself, the abolition by boycotting imports from the Confederate cotton-growing states.

.
It is hard to overcome social attitudes though, and many Britons still held what in hindsight are very patronising views about the real inhabitants of her colonies until well into the 20C. Similarly with the white-supremacists in parts of the USA.

We have to be careful of course - we cannot think for our 19C ancestors, nor impose our thinking on them.

We can though recognise the wrongs they did, and what was recognised as wrong at the time by the great reformers like William Wilberforce and Thomas Foxwell Buxton.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@BigGuy2 A great tragedy then later governments conveniently forgot that, or perhaps conveniently mis-read it to mean within the British Isles.
BigGuy2 · 31-35, M
@ArishMell technically, as soon as you set foot on English soil, you were deemed a free person, Slave Ships arrived in Bristol and Liverpool, but they didn't disembark them
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@BigGuy2 No - and it took a huge amount of very determined campaigning to end the trade.
Yulianna · 26-30, F
good work posting this... i have never read this before, a clear lesson in Confederate objectives.
@Yulianna And they have always been available as proof that the main concern of the southerners was maintaining their economy through slave labor.
Yulianna · 26-30, F
@bijouxbroussard 🤗 yes, it is clear.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@bijouxbroussard Well, the souths economy seem to be really depent on slaves. Next to the dependency, you had the issue of "ownership" and the loss of ones possession ones that property becomes "illegale" to possess. And the other sentiment that is really clear by some of these actors, is that the white race has some "natural place" above the black race. Something that is granted by God or Nature. And because of this natural thing, it's an abhoration to go against it. ... That last sentiment is a continuous driving force in the realm of white suppremacy.

Now, if you grow up in this kind of enviorement as a white slave owner... then I understand you pick up arms. Just as I'm disgusted by this mentality and will act against it.

But, back then, people were a lot simpler. If a similair discussion happens today, at the very least the governement changing the laws, should look for compensation. How weird that might sound, it would soothen the progress, while now it has cut a wound so deep that 150 years it still causes ripples over the current political spectrum and in the part of society that lost the discussion and the war. Same goes for the people that were being freed, just saying "you are free" wasn't good enough and created social ills that are also still prevalent today.

In the abstract, you can make a small comparisson with Germany that lost the 1st world war, got bankrupted not only by the war but also by the measures imposed on it. Because of that, a segment of the population was really pissed off and felt degraded, and that discontent was captured by an angry poppulist that promised a return to the good old days. Which caused more heartship. It's only the second time that allies understood that this kind of behavior towards a defeated foe didn't really bring a lot of good. And at least to western germany (because the country got cut up) there was a lot of effort to rebuild it, rebuild it's economy, make sure the people had some kind of stability (something to hold on too) that is still benefiting Europe as a whole (even with some of the things that can be perceived as "negative" that German governement decided during the periode after the war). Another thing, that Germans did, is build up a new national identity that incorperates the horrors of what their nation did in a particulair periode of time to fellow human beings (and even citizens) living within their borders. This was an open and painfull process, that also had some negative characteristics but overwhelmingly aided future generations to understand the past in a way that they don't feel the need to white wash it and go back to living in a world where all the bad things are muffled away in favor of a national identity that people can be overly proud off but is based on a lie that supresses any real learning and maturation. All of this, didn't happen in the US (and in other places that struggle(d) with a deep devide of "us" and "them" that brought a lot of atrocities, like yugoslavia), and the wounds from years ago just stay a festering open attrocity that sometimes spews out the vilest of occurances that undermines stability that a lot of people need to lead a bit of a "normal" life.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
It was tariffs bro.

Source: trust me.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul "Trust me" ... Is that a better or worst source then the "Angry Man Gazette"?
This is the best posts about this topic I have come across
@Babylon Definitely. I’ve been telling right-wingers about the secession documents for years but didn’t have the energy or patience to copy them so they could be seen as they are. I’m grateful the OP did and I’m bookmarking it.
@bijouxbroussard I just learned that I can bookmark posts!!

Not only has this site gotten better, I'm learning new things from everyone 😄
Thankiiiieeeesssss
[image/video deleted]

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/slavery/experience/legal/docs2.html
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
Just finished the book CHOCTAW CONFEDERATES. It deals with the Native Nations in "Indian Territory" supporting and supplying troops to the Confederacy and one of the main reasons why was their use of black slaves on cotton and corn plantations. I knew that Native tribes kept slaves, but hadn't realized how some of the nations had developed a plantation slave system that mirrored the White Southern system.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@ChipmunkErnie Did you also know that California was a slave state? Whites could enslave Indians at will and buy them at a slave auction in Los Angeles where the federal building now stands.

How California became a slave state and stayed one for decades after the Civil War
The Slave Act stayed in effect until 1937.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/How-California-became-a-slave-state-and-stayed-16649499.php
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
Excellent source material. Thanks for sharing.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, FVIP
Thanks for posting.
Thank you so much for posting these ! I looked them up years ago as anyone with internet access can do and it’s all here, in their own words. The people who still want to claim that the civil war wasn’t primarily about slavery are simply refusing to look at the reasons given by the Southerners themselves.
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
@bijouxbroussard States' Rights WAS an issue for sure -- but mainly because the recognition of that concept meant states had the right to keep slavery legal. Interestingly, the Native American nations in what is now Oklahoma and was then "Indian Territory" who joined with the Confederacy did so not just because of their shared interest in slave-holding, but the Native Nations felt the Confederate belief in/propaganda about States' lead them to feel that the Confederacy would be more liable to respect Native sovereignty than the Federal Government had and would in the future.
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BRAVO! I shall link to this
you have pointed it all out well
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
Well.


That settles that, then.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@Kwek00 What a load of bullschiff
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@sunsporter1649 Maybe it's time to start learning your history Sporter. But no worries, you are not the first immigrant that hasn't fully assimilated in the culture his parents arrived in.
@CorvusBlackthorne It truly should settle things. Right here, in black & white. And nobody can dispute the sources.
checkoutanytime · 46-50, M
This is precisely why rape is illegal, comon man grow up.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@checkoutanytime It's really time that you start changing your media diet.

I'm not sure about 2020, but in 2016 the KKK supporter Donald Trump really openly.


Neither the KKK and the republican party are progressive in these times.
checkoutanytime · 46-50, M
@Kwek00 progressive = nazis. Omg duha
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
I LIKE THIS PART
, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator,
NOW IF THAT IS NOT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT mutually beneficial my ass and the will of god..
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@markansas Welcome to the 19th century. There are more ideas like this running around at that time. And, in certain circles, these ideas persist.
@Kwek00 one of the things i was good at in high school was history
not so sure about what schools are teaching now and it seems to be different in each state. some teach this and some teach that. now that internet can spread both mis info and good info. its hard to tell the truth and easy to believe a lie .
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@markansas History, to a degree, is a debate. But when the actors themselves left sources that are so to the point... then why doubt them?
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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
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BigGuy2 · 31-35, M
@Kwek00

🤔 ... CREATED and printed by USAID

🤪🤪🤪
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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@ToddpicogramakaSatan Have you ever considered looking for proffesional help? I wish you good luck. 👬

 
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