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America is wrong about Ukraine

What is happening in Ukraine? Before diving into the events unfolding on the borderlands of Europe, let’s jump past some basic concerns I have about even writing this article. If you were to speak with a man who existed in hypocrisy like a fish exists in water, how often would you care to bring up the Golden Rule? At what point, after witnessing so many sociopathic forays, would you accept the futility of once again voicing calls for fairness?

The United States, in its current state, is the material embodiment of paranoia. Since World War 2, as if driven to madness by the nuclear waste infused blood on our hands, no stone is too small to risk remaining upturned. When September 11th happened, as is often true of the relationship between trauma and comorbidities, our already severe pathology became a terminal illness.

Paid for with our very future, this once revolutionary republic has dragged itself through every mud-drenched, sun scarred hellscape under the stars, all in a fear-drunk hope of catching a glance at the incoming punch we believe to be promised by karma.

And when every dollar was spent and ever pebble inspected, non-aggressive countries wary of external powers dictating their scientific or militaristic developments would be vilified so the role of enemy never remain unfilled.
Was the Monroe Doctrine just a Joke?

In 1923, the Monroe Doctrine warned European colonizers that the United States would not tolerate further colonization of the Western Hemisphere. Just 60 years ago, when the Soviet Union began the building of missile-launching sites in Cuba, it was the Monroe Doctrine John Kennedy would symbolically invoke.

Since that time, the United States and its allies in NATO have spent countless billions of dollars nearly encircling Russia with military bases.

For no other reason than military superiority, which is hardly an ethical justification, what would be imaginable for an America – an enemy within striking range – became the global expectation.
Obama’s Messaging Failure

Consider the reaction in America if Vladimir Putin came into office advocating for a military alliance between Russia and the government in Mexico. The brash, globalist minded Obama burst into the White House doors with just that sentiment.

Obama said it was important to “send a clear signal throughout Europe that we are going to continue to abide by the central belief … that countries who seek and aspire to join NATO are able to join NATO.” Biden has continues with this exact same rhetoric.

To understand why such messaging is disastrous to Ukraine, you need to understand the under-reported demographic makeup of the state once affectionately known as “little Russia.” As revealed by the Orange Revolution, the country is badly divided between the west and the Russian speaking east.

The Ukrainian Civil War

In America’s haste to bring Ukraine into its military fold, as is so common in stories such as this, weapons and support were delivered to some particularly unsavory characters during the Ukrainian Civil War. For a country that so freely invokes Nazi imagery in its domestic, internal conflicts, our standards abroad are more forgiving.

Pictured along with John McCain, Oleh Tyahnybok is leader of Svoboda, a Ukrainian political party that received over 40 percent of the 2012 vote in many parts of western Ukraine. To briefly explain the Nazi roots of this political party, it’s important to note that some 800,000 Jews were murdered in Ukraine during the German occupation, many of them by a Ukrainian auxiliary known as the Galicia Division. When Western Ukrainian citizens organized a ceremony honoring the unit, it was Oleg Pankevich, a Svovoda parliamentarian, who did the honors of being front and center.

“I was horrified to see photographs…of young Ukrainians wearing the dreaded SS uniform with swastikas clearly visible on their helmets as they carried caskets of members of this Nazi unit, lowered them into the ground, and fired gun salutes in their honor,” World Jewish Congress president Ronald Lauder wrote in a letter at the time.

Picture how the United States would feel if Russia provided financial and militaristic aid to literal Nazi organizations in Canada.
Conclusion

In history, those surrounded by enemies promising continuation to conflict have not been seen as the aggressor. However, Russia taking offense to Western funding of horrible elements in bordering countries has created this irrational outrage, when no country on our planet would condone such a flagrant attempt at encroachment.

The American economy is in free-fall, and the vast majority of Americans are lacking any faith in its leadership. Regarding both Russia and America, choosing deescalation and seeking mutual collaboration could be the only way to appropriately respond to the true threat posed by China.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
The Nazi stuff is all true - but also quite overblown imo. And there are neo-nazi militia units on the other side too.

Too much is made of the whole East/West divide as well. Crimea was very much a different story, but by and large it’s not like Eastern Ukraine is dying to join Russia. The conflict and enclaves there are extremely artificial.

This whole thing should be looked at through a purely geopolitical prism, the whole affair is very much part of the great game between the major powers. Nationalist and moral concerns unnecessarily cloud everything.

Really quite sad - Ukrainians were very well positioned to stay out of it and play both sides against each other. Now it is a question whether Ukraine will survive as a state in the long run at all.
@QuixoticSoul Right...the nazis just control the police, the military and practically anyone with a gun who are in turn owned by a billionaire who once froze government accounts just to prove a point of who is the real power behind the government because, oh yeah he owns the bank too.

And NATO and the anti communist movement in Europe more generally has had a nazi problem since 45.
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
I’m so sick of this Russian paranoia excuse. E. Europe has far more to fear from Russia than Russia has to fear from E. Europe.
@Fukfacewillie

Lol. Claiming to be an economics expert from being a tourist tells me all I need to know.

Fun fact, if you account for reparations (the GDR paid about 95% of war reparations) the economy of the GDR would be 5 times that of West Germany.

Easy to win a race if you kneecap your opponent first.



You used a model of empire outdated by the 1700s.


Not many "moderates" use the National Review to justify their ideological position, but sure.

And right and left are not dictated by party affiliation.
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

Definitely not claiming to be an expert, but the difference between East and West Germany was evident as soon as you crossed the border. I’m surprised this is a matter of controversy. Hungary was slightly better.

As for my model of empire, it still fits the current definition, not an archaic one from the 1700s.

By any conventional standard I’m not a right winger, but I understand being a moderate Democrat puts me in a position of being criticized from both sides.

My views on foreign policy are consistent with the last three Democratic administrations.

I do listen to different viewpoints, and when I agree with a conservative I don’t mind saying so.

I’m off to dine. Thanks for the exchange.
@Fukfacewillie By that logic, Bangladesh is a perfect example of capitalism.



No, you reduced your definition to something so narrow it has not been relevant for centuries.


And now claiming "not conservative because Democrat" silliness.

ideology is not dictated by party affiliation.

Case in point, Nixon was a hippie compared to Biden.
I think the only point missing and it relates to China too is that a cold war justifies the American empire and makes billions for the war profiteers which is about the only manufacturing left in the USA.

Need an excuse to run guns and justify bases? Manufacture a crisis.


This is also why similar ultra nationalists who believe in reinstating the Japanese Empire are backed in Tokyo too.
plungesponge · 41-45, M
From what I can understand. America has no chance winning any kind of conflict in Ukraine against Russia. Seems to be more about trying to turn global sentiment against Russia while using the Ukrainian people as the sacrificial lamb
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@plungesponge They could, but it would require total commitment, a lengthy buildup, and result in a nuclear exchange - you can’t effectively fight Russians in Ukraine without counter-attacking into Russia.

And trying to would fracture NATO right off the bat.
plungesponge · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul yes exactly, militarily the US is unbeatable, but in reality is military effectiveness is much more dictated by domestic political concerns and corporate profiteering, so much so it can't even successfully accomplish objectives against third world nations like Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea. Unless those objectives were only presented to the public as in the national interest while actually about making the rich richer... winkwink chaching
@QuixoticSoul Actually, based on the current state of the US arsenal the US would probably get the worst of it in a nuclear exchange too. The last bombs added to the US arsenal were literally upgraded versions of a 1950s era bomb you have to load on a B-52 and fly over a target and drop like it is the Korean War again.

The US has not even designed an ICBM since the disco era and only has one company left with the capability to build them. A company that is known for only one thing and that is being late to deliver and massively over budget.

Russia has been working on their deterrent and missile tech steadily and have a far more robust manufacturing infrastructure that also has been designed to be resistant to material shortages and such.

The only people who think a war with Russia would go well for the US are a bunch of think tanks that think you can "win" MAD. Basically people who have no idea what they are talking about.


I got this from Jane's Aerospace btw, I am not making this shit up. I also have a buddy who is ex SAC who confirmed as much.


He also referred to the US B-1B as being the world's only self jamming bomber. lol

Bottom line it would be a bad idea all around.
When did Monroe die? Sometime before 1923, right?
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
Sand castles before us
An ever perilous tide
Children know better
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@CorvusBlackthorne ah it wasn't supposed to be
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Apologies, then.
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CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
Perhaps the author feels that the United States should not have interfered in German affairs in the 1940s...

Update: I retract the statement. It appears that interfering on behalf of the Ukraine is the equivalent of interfering in order to prevent those innocent Nazis from being attacked by the rest of Europe.

Happy to be proven wrong.
@CorvusBlackthorne


Official Ukrainian military units that are basically former skinhead gangs.

Their insignia is that of the former waffen SS 2nd Panzer Division "Das Reich."


A similar unit, Aidar battalion changed theirs for PR reasons but it was originally the nazi black sun against the Ukrainian flag.


Harretz dit an article a couple of years ago about how Ukraine has more monuments to nazi collaborators than any other country on earth.

The Guardian also had a piece on how these groups even have their own little nazi youth.
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Let them suffer, then.
@CorvusBlackthorne I am kind of pissed at my own government too. They sent the Canadian army over to train these idiots. The soldiers expressed their concerns that "oh btw, these guys are nazis by their own admission."

DND's response was to issue a PR press release.

😡
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
So it is your opinion that if someone is in a position to prevent injustice, that person's moral obligation is to allow injustice to continue.
LiberateAmerica · 36-40, M
@CorvusBlackthorne If you're illegally carrying out military operations in Syria in 2022, you shouldn't be the first person in line to criticize anyone about state aggression. What injustice to you see occurring? You really think Russian troops will be marching through the streets of Kiev? What are we putting in the water in America?
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
@LiberateAmerica I personally am not carrying out military operations anywhere at the moment. And yes, it has occurred to me that Russia may choose to invade the Ukraine again. It isn't as though it is the first time.
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