So many people are pro-choice when it comes to COVID vaccines but are those people also pro-choice when it comes to a woman's right to abort?

@Elessar

Well i think one could argue that an abortion affects another life. Maybe not a person but a life.
But for me that's not the issue. Rather the issue is one of bodily autonomy.
I don't think the government should be able to tell a person what they must do with their own body whether that is carry a pregnancy or take a vaccine.

I'm all for associated consequences of the choice but i do think that bodily autonomy is one of the most important rights we have.

@Elessar

I don't think those arguments are without value. I just don't think violating bodily autonomy is ok.

@Pikachu I don't either, in ordinary times, but these aren't ordinary times unfortunately.

@Elessar I know it's bad but i think for me it would have to be more like smallpox before i'd get on board with mandatory vaccination.

@Pikachu I think it should kick in the moment a disease becomes unsustainable. A disease spreading potentially faster than measles with the hospitalisation risk it carries in naïve populations definitely justifies mandatory vaccination in my opinion.

We have mandatory vaccinations in infants already for other diseases that would also be potentially destructive, at least over here. This is just another addition to that set. The problem is mostly convincing people who forgot they had those too 50+ years ago.

@Elessar
Yeah i guess it is a bit of a different thing when your choice can affect so many people. I'm just not comfortable with the idea of the government being able to force me to put something in my body. And i say that as someone who just got their third moderna shot.

@Elessar interrupting a pregnancy does not just affect the one carrying the child it also affects the child so there are two lives at stake when you interrupt the pregnancy by ripping a child's arms legs and head off while it is still inside of a womb.

@dale74 Appeal to emotion notwithstanding, yes, it does affect the other life. But Elessar is making the point that vaccination affects many lives.

How can one unvaccinated person who has never had Covid, and doesn’t have Covid be a threat to all the vaccinated? It doesn’t even make sense. @Elessar

@Pikachu If person a gets vaccinated they can still get covid they can still pass covid. If person b does not get vaccinated they can get covid they can still pass covid. Neither person a nor b whether they get vaccinated or not can prevent themselves from receiving covid or passing covid should they be exposed to covid.

Since person b did not get the vaccination they do not take any risk for long-term possible side effects of covid. Person a by getting the vaccination is taking a chance on long-term side effects from the vaccination.

To the argument that the vaccination is safe and there are no serious adverse long-term side effects if this was truly a 100% guarantee then how come at one time vaccinations had Mercury in them yes a deadly metal that is liquid at room temperature used to be in most all vaccinations.

Long-term side effects will not be realized for 5,10,15,20 years.

@Carissimi

Well a person without COVID isn't but they may catch COVID and they may infect people before they know they have it, including the unvaccinated and the vulnerable.
You seem to value personal responsibility. Surely that extends to the responsibility to keep your neighbours safe?

@dale74

Well the vaccines did indeed have a large chance to prevent infection for earlier variants of the virus. That resistance is unfortunately dropping but the vaccination still makes a person much less likely to develop serious illness or die. That's why ICUs are predominately filled with the un-vaccinated.

I don't have the time to educate you on the difference between the type of mercury that was present in vaccines vs the type you might have seen in a thermometer so i'll let that red herring stand and suggest you look into it if you're interested.

@Pikachu explain to me why the mandate in New York allows a person that is vaccinated to be allowed to go out in public to any restaurant they want even if they are showing all the signs that they have covid. This person can also spread covid to vaccinated and unvaccinated people. But yet an unvaccinated person who also shows no signs and could have just now taken a rapid test to show they do not have covid is not allowed out in public.

@dale74

Why should i explain that to you? Seems like a bad idea lol
Definitely not the way it is where i live. If you've got symptoms you better be staying at home, vaccinated or not.

@Pikachu no they didn't if you look at the statistical data hospital became more and more prepared more and more treatments for the symptoms were created but the actual vaccination does not show having a tremendous impact look up the number of people who have died from covid that were unvaccinated since June of 2021 and look at the number of people who have died from covid that have received the vaccination since June of 2021 and the reason I say June of 2021 is that was for the first time the vaccination was available to the general public without any restrictions such as working at a hospital or having a pre disposition to contributing factors.

I agree, but as I don’t have Covid, and don’t go near other people, all are safe from me. How me being vaccinated makes a difference to the safety of others is ridiculous. I take responsibility for my own health, and stay away from everyone. The so called vaccines ... which are not ...are killing and maiming too many people –18,000 by the last count, and that’s an undercount. That is more deaths in less than one year, for one “vaccine,” than all the vaccines together in the past 30-years. Any other medication would have been pulled for less than half of these deaths. If it were a proper vaccine that had a good safety record, and prevented infection and transmission, I’d think differently, but it’s not. @Pikachu

@Pikachu if people who start to show any symptoms or have had any exposure to covid they should refrain from general public and they should be checked to see if they do end up getting the disease if they are showing symptoms they should stay at home no matter what because whether they've got covid or the flu or even a cold they would still be contagious to others common sense.

@Carissimi

That's good. I think you should be free to make the choice not to get vaccinated but that you should then accept the restrictions that come with that choice.
Of the hundreds of millions of vaccines that have been administered, that's a pretty small fraction. And i don't say that to diminish the loss of those people because that's heartbreaking to their families.
But COVID has claimed more than 6 million lives now.

Anyway, this thread isn't actually about the vaccine or abortion. It's about what we think of bodily autonomy.

@dale74

[quote] if people who start to show any symptoms or have had any exposure to covid they should refrain from general public [/quote]

Yup. That's the public health directive where i live regardless of vaccination status.

@Pikachu how many people have died of covid let's take in the United States

@dale74 Google says approaching 1 million.

@Pikachu 859,046 as of yesterday total number of people who have had covid in the us 60,954,028. This breaks down to you have a 1.3% chance of dying if you get covid. To me something that has a death rate of less than 2% is not worth taking a risk on long-term side effects.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

@dale74 Small comfort to the families of the nearly ONE MILLION humans who have lost their lives.
The fact is that the vaccines while less effective at preventing disease, continue to prevent serious illness and death at a much higher probability than the unvaccinated.
It's the unvaccinated who are now dying in the ICUs.
You call 1.3% chance acceptable? What's the percentage of people who have suffered serious side effects from the vaccine compared to the tens of millions of vaccines which have been distributed? Far less than 1 percent of one percent.

@Pikachu you also have to understand that 1.3% also includes all of the people who died before vaccinations were even available it's actually closer to only about .6% and there is no statistical or scientific proof that you have because people who have never been vaccinated are also the people who have been asymptomatic take senator Rand Paul he didn't have any side effects never even knew he had it till he was tested and that's just cuz they tested everybody.