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UK Parliment

So lets debate this please

Was it right for Boris and the Tories to close Parliment

Was it right that the UK Supreme court overruled this

Is it right MP's are back at Parliment
ArtieKat · M
I don't think it was within the remit of the Supreme Court to intervene in an essentially political matter. The length of prorogation has been exaggerated out of all proportion - parliament would [u]not[/u] have been sitting during the conference season. This whole affair has been a cynical move by Parliament to avoid carrying out the wishes of a majority mandate because our elected representatives think they know better than us, the public.
ArtieKat · M
@SW-User No surprises there, Kelly!
SW-User
@ArtieKat She was a Blair babe wasn't she? Ushered in from the privaliged south to a constituency she had zero interest in
MartinII · 70-79, M
@milkymum1 Well, the problems with a prospective Labour government are a) a reactionary socialist economic policy and b) a foreign policy that puts the interests of other countries ahead of those of the UK. Still, I agree with you that it’s difficult to imagine anything worse than Mrs May!
SW-User
I think Parliament should be working together to navigate a way out of this mess. They keep voting against what they don't want but don't come up with any alternative plan.

Corbyn is a chicken. He has an opportunity to bring down the government and seek a mandate from the people. But he won't because he's scared of a Brexit backlash against his MP's , many of whom represent areas that voted leave
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@SW-User Yes Parliment needs to work togther but the problem is thiers far to many towing party line and looking at thier own seat is safe for the next GE.

As for Corbyn he's actually playing it right, Boris has brought on ALL of this mess by making the Tories a minority Government and not the oppersition parties.

I also think until Boris will agree he will stay within the law no GE will happen.
SW-User
@Nyloncapes Corbyn keeps shifting position and his Brexit spokesman - Keir Starmer - keeps saying things publicly that go against the Labour Party line but Corbyn does nothing because many of his back benchers don't back him or want him as leader. He is as vulnerable as Boris is right now which is why he won't trigger a no confidence vote because he doesn't have the backing of other parties to form an interim government.

Boris could be shrewd and go to the queen and say his government cannot command a majority and are resigning on mass. Corbyn would be summoned to the Palace and would be given 14 days to form a government. The Libs and SNP won't prop him up so he would fail , triggering a general election
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@SW-User THE3 problem is the Tories and Labour are both doing the same they don't know what to do as Brxit has passed party bounderies and they are tryign to appeal to both sides rather than just picking one way.

I think it would be very hard to have an intrim Government, how would it work?

I don't ever see Boris offering up his place as PM he"s wnated this all his polictical life and will hang on to it even if it means he's not the shortest ever PM.
MartinII · 70-79, M
1. I think it was a reasonable thing to do, but perhaps unnecessary and unwise. I wouldn’t say right or wrong.

2. It was extremely unwise of the Supreme Court to claim jurisdiction. It sets a dangerous precedent, and I am sure a future government will seek to limit the Court’s powers.

3. It depends what use they make of the few days that will be available before Parliament is prorogued again. What they should do is allow the Prime Minister to call a general election.
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@MartinII I think if Boris had closed Parliment for a week maybe two weeks at the most it would have been accptable, but for five weeks there was more to it than needed.

The UKSC is there to stop any PM or government from acting as they did as no PM or government are above the law.

They will only let the PM call a GE once he has agreed to extend for another 3 months as law says if you go in to a GE you have to come out of it as it was, but Boris has brought this all on himself.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@milkymum1 I disagree with your second and third paragraphs. The law the Prime Minister is said to have broken is one invented by the Supreme Court. Call it good law or bad law as you like, but it is a far more radical, and in my view egregious, departure from constitutional precedent than the long prorogation was.

As to your third paragraph, the problem derives from the Fixed Parliament Act introduced by the Cameron coalition government. With the government prevented by parliament from governing, a general election is obviously necessary. Before the Cameron Act, the PM would simply have advised the Queen to dissolve parliament and we would be in the middle of the campaign now. As it is, the Act has allowed unscrupulous operators like Grieve and Letwin to frustrate democratic government solely in order to prevent the implementation of a policy which they don’t like. I said at the time it was introduced that the Act was a constitutional outrage, but I didn’t think it mattered too much in practice because I couldn’t imagine any opposition party refusing a government’s request for a general election. Now I know better.
joesecret · 56-60, M
it should never be debated brexit was a yes no vote simple lol leave won end of conversation
SW-User
@SW-User yes they'll do nothing about it. Look at the figures the 100,000 target was laughable. Why? Because for the economy to grow it needs new blood it's good economically for immigration. They said 100,000 but more than that come from non EU countries where we can control and where its difficult to move from. I've regularly recruited from middle East, India, Pakistan, China, USA, etc over the years. It costs a lot to get people in from there but despite the process never had one refused. Which was good for my employers, actually most non EU recruitment I ever did was in UK public sector you can't pay enough for UK staff or EU staff but Indians will leave their families for that chance. There are deep rooted issues in pay and reward, in what and who we train in this country etc.

However the big problem is that immigration is blamed, I believe, for things it's not responsible for. The NHS is stretched because of funding issues and an aging indigenous population not immigrants. Schools are over crowded because we don't build enough or pay teachers anything like a reasonable salary.
GP surgeries are largely staffed with immigrant doctors replacing (too slowly) those retiring early due to the dumb life time pension allowance rules.

I could go on.... But again my left wing liberal leanings show again 🤫
SW-User
@SW-User Nothing wrong with being left or right wing. Socialist or Conservative. I just want to see a democratic vote upheld
SW-User
@SW-User I think it's the liberal bit (note small l) that is what people seem to hate these days that I think of others before myself and want to share the values and wealth I'm lucky to have just through the luck of being born in UK in this age. Seems to me it's all about wanting to deny others what people have got largely through luck at the moment. Through that belief I feel massively out of step with the vast majority who shout from the hustings these days whether they claim to be left or right they all want to stop "them" from getting what "us" have. 🤷‍♂️ Sorry Dad, Granddad I don't know where my generation screwed up so badly.
joesecret · 56-60, M
we do get european money but most money go to only afew areas london most money goes to leeds have benefited other cities have but the rest of country suffer lets all have a share instead of playing us off against city to city.country getting to over populled but services are getting worse more people in the country more services to cope we are going bck to old days with no street lighting on no doctors appoitments transport getting worse no industry we are just a loading bay for warehouses and goods .we havent got no car industry steel coal mines lets start producing making are own stuff.also lets get the pride back into people we were a great nation but now rely on europe for all are decisions lets all start being proud again and build .
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@joesecret we get a lot from the EU, just look recently 200M for the satalite we have just lauachned or the fishing industry i think its like 80% we sell to the EU 27, thye problem is for decades the uk governments have underfunded , cut back, sourced out all of our services, infractructor, manufactoring but not ocne did i hear people moaning about it when they were getting cheaper goods from china and elsewhere...................the problem is now we dont have the skills or the training to do what we used to do and the government wont help as they expect companies to train people up..................pride is hard to get back as that was trashed under the tories and thatcher and a lot of people see the current crop of polictiitions and think if they cant have pride why should i................. as for teh rums we have a huge say in all the laws made but not know as we have given that up!!!!!!
Northwest · M
Disclaimer: I am not American.

Q1) Short answer: No. Longer answer: Boris sold a phony bill of goods to the public, and now he has to deliver. He can't back down and say he was wrong, that's not his style, so this was the only play, from his perspective.

Q2) Yes. The Supreme Court is supposed to act as part of a system of checks and balances. This is the role of any properly setup supreme court, in any country. It's a safeguard for democratic societies.

Q3) Yes. They're doing what the public elected them to do.
Northwest · M
It did, but that’s what I mean by the phony bill of goods.

@Nyloncapes
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Northwest that's what I thought too so ty x
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Nyloncapes Yes but a legal way, Boris could have done a new term for Parliment and for new Queen speech by closing Parliment for a week not five weeks. Also as they are now sitting again there is nothing from stopping the bills Boris wants to bring in to be done now.
Nyloncapes · 61-69, M
I don't think it was right for supreme court to rule on this, don't know if it was right or not to close parliament but if he honestly was doing it to get brexit through then I think he had to try and do something as he is just being stopped from all sides who want to keep us in EU delivering the democratic result of the people
Nyloncapes · 61-69, M
@milkymum1 we had a vote where people voted to leave 3 years later still not left , remainers done everything to get brexit stopped because they did not get result they wanted is this legal, when article 50 signed said after 2 years of negotiations if no agreement we leave with a deal or no deal was that right , I might be wrong, Theresa Mays deal was not brexit
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Nyloncapes OK now I ahte this remainers and leavers rubbish, we all voted one way or the other and we ahve to get past this stereo type cast otherwise nothign will get better. AS for stopping Brexit what Parliment has done is to debate how we leave, and TM came back with a deal which the majority of Parliment voted against for various reasons. The problem is TM made all these soundbites for popularity which backfired spectacurily, the problem is we have had a GE since then and the mandte for the Tories is an orderly departure not to leave by breaking the law surley you don't agree with that?
Nyloncapes · 61-69, M
@milkymum1 yes agree with you on Theresa may , yes I think everybody would like a deal, but I do believe there are people who would still vote against a deal even if it was good deal for UK, example Joe swinson , she just wants brexit cancelled and her party, what about putting just leave with deal or leave with no deal if there was another vote, let people decide what are your thoughts on that, as I don't really think remain should be on a ballot paper
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
No.
Yes.
Yes.

Did you listen to the Attorney General's speech ?
Sounded like a long-winded Judge summing up !

He asserts that the Supreme Court made political judgements.
And (unsurprisingly) he disagrees with the idea that proroguing was a political manoeuvre intended to force an election.
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Picklebobble2 Yes I saw him today and thought some of it he was good at defending the Supreme court but I'm distgusted he wouldn't say anythign against any of his party saying and posting distgusting things about the Judges.

He seemed to be playing up to the cameras and to appeal to the people its all the operstions fault, tryign to blame the opperstion they are a minority government!!
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
@milkymum1 Oh it was like listening to a QC summing up in court ! Masterful performance !
But i don't think he fooled anyone for a second.
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Picklebobble2 Yes it was very clear, presice, well worded.

He certianlly didn't fool me, after all its Boris fault the Tories are a minority party now and not the opperstion fault.
joesecret · 56-60, M
no your not calling me stupid and the debating side i think your very clued up and do make good points the people who do argue and bring us down are elite goverment departments xx
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@joesecret ty hun, the eleite who told us not to vote for the eleite!!!!!
joesecret · 56-60, M
plus bankers'singers'sport stars they all went abd still are against leave they have insulted leave voters we are not stupid not racialists we just want a better fairer life
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@joesecret as have sport stars, film stars who want to leave!!!!!! and yet again i said debate not all this rubbish of who called who what as that is pointless and unnessercery!!!
SW-User
No (as shown by supreme Court decision)
Yes
Yes

Parliament is the sovereign body in the UK. That has been accepted since at least beginning of the 18th century when Queen Anne was the last monarch to refuse Royal assent of a Bill passed by Parliament. This was recently tested in the adjudication that Parliament must have "a meaningful vote" regarding the final Brexit situation.

This shows the pm is not a singlar executive that can act without or against the wishes of Parliament. The proroguation was an attempt to avoid parliamentary scrutiny - as judges by the supreme Court.

If the proroguation was illegally advised then it was right MPs returned to work.
lol...Boris just seems to Blunder on....doing whatever he wants.
I mean they brought in all these austerity measures to reduce the deficit but the deficit is actually more now??? Weird!
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Justin49 He doesn’t seem to be doing badly to me. And he is certainly good at winning elections!
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Justin49 Johnson wasn’t part of the government that brought in so-called austerity measures.
firefall · 61-69, M
Boris and the Tories, didn't close Parliament. Boris did, against the wishes of quite a lot of the Conservative Party MPs.

Yes, the UKSC was the appropriate venue to adjudicate this, and if you say they dont have the authority, you're saying there's no constraint on the PM doing anything he liked, irrespective of law.

And yes, given (b).
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@firefall Ok Boris did but he represents the Tories and it was the TOry privey council that advised the Queen and the Tory Attornt Genral who gave the legal advice

Yes I think so too as the UKSC was completly indpendant and let both sides not stray away from the reason they were there for.
firefall · 61-69, M
@milkymum1 that was part of the UKSC decision, that Boris did not represent the Tories in Parliament without seeking their vote and approval, or so I understood it.
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@firefall Well he represents them as hes the Tort leader so does everyhting in thier name.
joesecret · 56-60, M
lets face it remain viters supporters never gave leave a chance they they thought it was a done result they had all the meadia they had obama threatning the uk leave voters the will off people won there middle to rich life styles might be in danger its time for change nigel farage right or wrong is the only one who puts is convictions on the line for the normal people of the uk
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@joesecret I do ebleive all the media was for leave just look at how all the nes papers were!!!

as for Fargare he has never ever put us first, if he has he would have turned up at the EU parliment more than he did and been there for the importnat votes like on fishing.

also you had movies stars, singers etc etc for leave

I'm not saying you are stupid and I also said lets debate not all this remoners stuff because that isn't stopping or helping anything, if you want people to take you properly then show respect too!!!

as for a fairer life you won't get that outside of the EU the Tories will make sure of that!!
SarahX · 22-25, F
No, Johnson was wrong. And yes to the other two questions.
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nope yup corbyn rocks
mathsman · 70-79, M
“Right” is not the issue.
He, not the Tories, did it.
The overruling judges claimed to know his unstated reasons.
Parliament is back as the judges claimed it had not been prorogued.
“Rightness” is not the relevant word.
Regfries · M
The Supreme Court used to be the Law Lords. Neither group were elected to office but they can dictate to those who were..
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Regfries That's no different to the goverment advisors just look at Dominic Cummings!!!!
Regfries · M
@milkymum1 No it isn't, you're absolutely right.
milkymum1 · 31-35, F
@Regfries I do think it should have never had happened as it showed the Tories don't want to be democratic.
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Nimbus · M
No

Yes

Yes

The guy doesn't have a clue and is winging it.

A resignation is in order.

 
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