The remoaners are pathetic children and have nothing but insults

I see the same thing. I'm similar to you in position although probably slightly more toward the remaining camp. I'd like a second vote once we know what the deal or no deal is so either leave with deal agreed or remain or leave with no deal.

I do agree with you that if that was held if remain one it would still be another slim majority so not really stop the politics of division we're seeing.

For me today I (with an extremely heavy heart) have to vote Lib Dems. For me this is created by the government reply to the revoke article 50 petition. I was told because I voted Labour along with many other remainers I voted for brexit.... But that wasn't the referendum and therefore states I have to vote for a party in alignment with my desire ie revoke article 50. Its made any election a single issue referendum if that is how a serving government can subsequently throw my compromise vote back in my face.

I live in Kent so my vote for Labour, Lib Dems or anything other than Tory is frankly wasted in my constituency it'll return a tory but if it'll be considered I'm in favour of brexit by voting Labour again I really can't do it despite my support for many Labour policy suggestions.

My biggest gripe is that all sides seem to say they want to respect the referendum result. If I've ordered turkey by mistake in a restaurant I want to send it back and do it again. If we made a cock up we should admit so, and tbe referendum was fundamentally flawed.

I agree that there hasn't been a big change in opinion. Just over a third of the population voted to leave. Looking at the recent European elections and current opinion polls giving "New conservative" 35%, the result of another referendum would probably be very similar.

In the absence of a clear majority in favour if a well defined change, we should leave things as they are. I think we could learn from our American friends when it comes to constitutional change, where I believe a 2/3 vote in both houses is required.

Maybe I'll just stay over here in US.

As someone from NI, I wonder at the reasons for the desire to break from Europe in the first place. How much of it was down to personal ambition? After the history of the last few centuries, the EU seemed like an ideal that was working surprisingly well, against the odds. The different constituents of Europe can contribute so much to each other in terms of culture, human rights, the sheer enjoyment of life as a result of their diversity. Obviously having a trading alliance with our nearest neighbours is hugely beneficial vis-a-vis other large trading groups. Why are we throwing so much away?

[quote][...]hard leavers have no arguments on economics or logistics. They demand that what they voted for is carried out but they leave the details for how to do that to other people. Attempts to debate details with them are dismissed as 'project fear' - I.e. Political bias against their position which requires no other thought or consideration. They think the referendum result of 2015 gives them a mandate for a hard no deal Brexit when no such thing was actually debated then. If anyone won't let them have their cake and eat it then they are the enemy of the people.[/quote]

The Ballot that people voted on looked like this:


It's pretty unnuanced. It's binairy choice: "out" or "in". "Out" won the vote, so people that identify with this "out"-vote just want it pushed through.

This entire conversation about "how", should have been held before the vote. And if it was important that "hard" or "soft" needed to be considered, it should either be on the ballot or discussed before the vote.

How I perceive it, and my opinion hasn't changed, is that this entire thing was unnuanced, uncoordinated, pretty much full of emotions and based on loads of false information. Now that the dust settled and all the damadge has been done, the nuance suddenly starts creeping in because it serves certain narratives. But all of this had to be done before the vote.

The crux of what was debated was: "out" or "in". "Out" won. Nuanced or unnuanced... as long as they don't hurt people in their constitutional rights, this referendum thing (which I believe is a historical fuck up) needs to be accepted for what it is. It's either that, or revolt. Not sure if that is going to be better... but that's pretty much what living in a society means if you let people vote on stuff.

We're on opposite sides of the debate but I think that you are very fair in your assessment.

One of the (many) problems with this whole thing is either sides attempt at 'simplifying' the issue.
....and you just can't !

Mention either Remain or Leave and you get 100 different reasons for either.

No offense, but it's probably your attitude that is the root cause problem. And, the referendum was anything but legitimate and I think you readily understand that.

As a conservative with libertarian leanings i understand. i often have disagreements with both sides about different issues.

I hear you about extremists. Extremism seems to be a curse of the times we live in.

Off topic , but I really need to know. Is the likelihood now that Benn's bill will become law in time ? Meaning , will the Tories in the Lords still be able to throw a spanner in the works and prevent it from becoming law ?

What many people don't realise though is many of those pro brexit do not want a no deal brexit

Here in the US there's been a number of reports of outside interference in the Brexit referendum that swung the results to withdrawal.