This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
CopperCicada · M
It's pragmatism.
Like 7% of California's workforce is illegal labor. That's not going to change despite all the protestations. It's cheap labor for agriculture, construction, and domestic service.
Given their social class, whatever money they don't send back home gets spent on housing, food, consumer goods.
Either they get insurance or they walk through the ER as their primary. And then we eat all those costs.
The real outrage should be who the fuck is employing this 7% of the work force with illegal labor. And why nobody gives a shit.
Some states employ even more illegal labor. Nevada's workforce is about 10% illegal. Texas about the same as California.
Like 7% of California's workforce is illegal labor. That's not going to change despite all the protestations. It's cheap labor for agriculture, construction, and domestic service.
Given their social class, whatever money they don't send back home gets spent on housing, food, consumer goods.
Either they get insurance or they walk through the ER as their primary. And then we eat all those costs.
The real outrage should be who the fuck is employing this 7% of the work force with illegal labor. And why nobody gives a shit.
Some states employ even more illegal labor. Nevada's workforce is about 10% illegal. Texas about the same as California.
Pherick · 41-45, M
@CopperCicada Agreed, why are we slamming the hammer down on these companies who hire illegal immigrants?
Cheap produce is why.
Cheap produce is why.
CopperCicada · M
@Pherick I mean, by the time you are talking 5, 7, 10% of a workforce, the whole pretext of people sneaking in and pilfering jobs is absurd. It's endemic. We're talking like 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 people working illegally.
What pisses me off is why this aspect of the problem is never even discussed. I'm not an open borders person. But the rhetoric doesn't add up. Need a wall. OK. Check. Need to stop giving these people anything. A'right. We need to deport them. Huh. OK. Let me pour a drink and we'll see how that works when you're talking 5-10% of the work force.
What pisses me off is why this aspect of the problem is never even discussed. I'm not an open borders person. But the rhetoric doesn't add up. Need a wall. OK. Check. Need to stop giving these people anything. A'right. We need to deport them. Huh. OK. Let me pour a drink and we'll see how that works when you're talking 5-10% of the work force.
Pherick · 41-45, M
@CopperCicada Agreed. I mean all the things I hear today are treating symptoms, lets talk about the cause. We know they are leaving their own countries because they feel like they are in horrible conditions (which we seem to have played some role in settings up) then they look to the US because they know they can get work here.
Why is that? Why don't they think, "Hey yea the US, but as an illegal, I will never get work".
Why is that? Why don't they think, "Hey yea the US, but as an illegal, I will never get work".
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
What’s so hard about making it enticing and not close to impossible to obtain citizenship? @CopperCicada
CopperCicada · M
@jackjjackson The horse is sort of already out of the barn when 5-10% of your labor force is illegal labor (in the states with the most illegal labor), right?
And that's not a hypothetical. That's real numbers.
Whatever we do at the border now, today, or whatever we do with immigration and naturalization policy now, today-- doesn't impact that one bit.
Just take one economic sector. Agriculture. There's close to 1.8M illegal agricultural workers presently. There's 1.3M legal ones. Let's say half are illegal for the sake of argument. We're really going to arrest, detain, and deport, 1/2 of the labor of the economic sector that grows our food?
This is why I call bullshit on all of this. We've had a huge number of illegal agricultural workers in this state the 30 years I've been here. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows where they are. All this political rhetoric is bullshit. We've been doing it for years and nothing changes. The farms have to keep producing because people are gonna want to eat.
And this whole time these people have used the ER as their primary medical care. That is about as financially devastating for a local hospital as it gets.
And that's not a hypothetical. That's real numbers.
Whatever we do at the border now, today, or whatever we do with immigration and naturalization policy now, today-- doesn't impact that one bit.
Just take one economic sector. Agriculture. There's close to 1.8M illegal agricultural workers presently. There's 1.3M legal ones. Let's say half are illegal for the sake of argument. We're really going to arrest, detain, and deport, 1/2 of the labor of the economic sector that grows our food?
This is why I call bullshit on all of this. We've had a huge number of illegal agricultural workers in this state the 30 years I've been here. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows where they are. All this political rhetoric is bullshit. We've been doing it for years and nothing changes. The farms have to keep producing because people are gonna want to eat.
And this whole time these people have used the ER as their primary medical care. That is about as financially devastating for a local hospital as it gets.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
That is my point and why I used the word ‘entice’. Let’s make them citizens. @CopperCicada
CopperCicada · M
@jackjjackson Well, if anyone were to suggest that, they'd be pilloried as a destroyer of the economy and the fabric of society itself. And the counter argument would be that citizenship would entire more people to come and seek that citizenship.
I'm a pragmatist.
Here... there's a ton of undocumented farm labor in the out lying counties. What now. BOOM. What now?
Encouraging them to unplug from the healthcare system is what results in endemics of infectious disease. Being unplugged from social systems buries criminal child abuse, domestic violence, addiction. And so on.
I'm a pragmatist.
Here... there's a ton of undocumented farm labor in the out lying counties. What now. BOOM. What now?
Encouraging them to unplug from the healthcare system is what results in endemics of infectious disease. Being unplugged from social systems buries criminal child abuse, domestic violence, addiction. And so on.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
Well I suggested it. Let’s see if I get pilloried? @CopperCicada
CopperCicada · M
@jackjjackson I took you as making a rhetorical point, not making a real suggestion.
At the very least, illegal labor could be given a renewable visa status. Something like an H-2A. They wouldn't have the rights of citizens in terms of voting, getting SSI and other federal benefits. But they would be documented and given the pretext for local and state tax revenues used to provide such things as certain social services.
Then one could have the discussion on transitioning them to green cards or citizenship.
At the very least, illegal labor could be given a renewable visa status. Something like an H-2A. They wouldn't have the rights of citizens in terms of voting, getting SSI and other federal benefits. But they would be documented and given the pretext for local and state tax revenues used to provide such things as certain social services.
Then one could have the discussion on transitioning them to green cards or citizenship.
CopperCicada · M
@jackjjackson But there is a strategic challenge when ~ 50% of your agricultural labor are not American citizens. You are bound to keeping an undocumented population in your country because of the necessity to feed your country and the value of your ag exports.
Like WTF.
Like WTF.
Northwest · M
@CopperCicada [quote]What pisses me off is why this aspect of the problem is never even discussed[/quote]
Oh, but it is, wide and deep. Pragmatism, however, does not sell to "Nationalist" crowds, and people with the mentality of a Trump.
This morning, Trump was blabbing about how California cares more about illegals, than it does about its own people. Hey, these illegals, are California people. That's what Gavin Newson responded with. Pragmatism, is looked at as "do not care about border security", when nothing can be farther from the truth.
The GOP Congressional districts, in California (and Washington State for that matter), and concentrations of illegals in the agricultural industry, overlap pretty good.
The other myth, is that the illegals are sucking resources, and not paying back into the system. That's simply not true. They may be using some illegal SS#s, etc. but they are paying taxes, and participating in the local economy.
Border security is a separate issue, that the left does not ignore, but does not have the patience, to deal with the imbeciles who say that the left hates America.
Oh, but it is, wide and deep. Pragmatism, however, does not sell to "Nationalist" crowds, and people with the mentality of a Trump.
This morning, Trump was blabbing about how California cares more about illegals, than it does about its own people. Hey, these illegals, are California people. That's what Gavin Newson responded with. Pragmatism, is looked at as "do not care about border security", when nothing can be farther from the truth.
The GOP Congressional districts, in California (and Washington State for that matter), and concentrations of illegals in the agricultural industry, overlap pretty good.
The other myth, is that the illegals are sucking resources, and not paying back into the system. That's simply not true. They may be using some illegal SS#s, etc. but they are paying taxes, and participating in the local economy.
Border security is a separate issue, that the left does not ignore, but does not have the patience, to deal with the imbeciles who say that the left hates America.
CopperCicada · M
@Northwest I'm in Florida and see the same thing. GOP governors. GOP congressional seats. And the agricultural land is in those red counties, and that is where the illegal farm labor is.
It's a horrible *wink wink*. The red meat to the base about the foreign invasion and the silent reliance on their labor. From the same mouths.
People will say they don't know the illegals are here. They are liars. Or they are idiots.
The "sucking resources" issue is interesting. The place I see it is in healthcare. But is that a immigrant issue or a poverty issue?
Beyond that, the scales turn the other way. And that is well documented. When they cracked down on illegal ag labor in Alabama, it had a B$ impact on the state through secondary and tertiary revenue losses.
These brown people everyone hates spend money in their communities.
I agree. There are all these orthogonal issues that get conflated.
It's a horrible *wink wink*. The red meat to the base about the foreign invasion and the silent reliance on their labor. From the same mouths.
People will say they don't know the illegals are here. They are liars. Or they are idiots.
The "sucking resources" issue is interesting. The place I see it is in healthcare. But is that a immigrant issue or a poverty issue?
Beyond that, the scales turn the other way. And that is well documented. When they cracked down on illegal ag labor in Alabama, it had a B$ impact on the state through secondary and tertiary revenue losses.
These brown people everyone hates spend money in their communities.
I agree. There are all these orthogonal issues that get conflated.
CopperCicada · M
@Northwest That's the deceptive part of the argument.
What I personally resent about the inability to talk about this issue and adequately address it with reasonable public policy is that it entrenches a cultural war that need not be here.
No joke, I literally hear people say the Mexicans are taking over when they see Spanish named streets like "Ponce de Leon". And I'm like WTF. The Spaniards were here in 1560 dude. And I have people in my own family that can't go to a Mexican or Italian restaurant because it's "foreign food". I'm like WTF. Olive Garden is edgy?
If we keep at this, the whole country is going to be one big ChikFilA and Walmart. And I'll be dead or ex-pat'd.
There's a flow chart:
Have an immigration problem > Can you fix it without pisses off your big corporate ag biz donors? > No > Chum the waters to make a faux cultural war to make it look like you care > Repeat until tacos are treason.
What I personally resent about the inability to talk about this issue and adequately address it with reasonable public policy is that it entrenches a cultural war that need not be here.
No joke, I literally hear people say the Mexicans are taking over when they see Spanish named streets like "Ponce de Leon". And I'm like WTF. The Spaniards were here in 1560 dude. And I have people in my own family that can't go to a Mexican or Italian restaurant because it's "foreign food". I'm like WTF. Olive Garden is edgy?
If we keep at this, the whole country is going to be one big ChikFilA and Walmart. And I'll be dead or ex-pat'd.
There's a flow chart:
Have an immigration problem > Can you fix it without pisses off your big corporate ag biz donors? > No > Chum the waters to make a faux cultural war to make it look like you care > Repeat until tacos are treason.