Would you say the left more collective and right individualistic?

I have been thinking about differences in the way left-wing thinks versus right-wing.

Would you agree that the left suppresses individual liberties to conform with the good of the community as they see it. That they seek a consensus of thought and judge those who think differently as less? How else could this be phrased?

Would you agree that the right is about suppressing collective values to serve individual needs. They lack empathy for the plight of collective as a whole. They judge the good of the whole as less than that of the individual? How else could this be phrased?

I am attempting to better understand the communication gap between the right and the left. From most of the threads I see on politics there is so very little actually exchanged, where each party is merely shouting at the other. I am being to think it is not as much ideology as a way of thinking of one's place in society.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

I think it's complex but the difference between socialism and libertarianism is about the difference between positive and negative freedom.

For the libertarian, its all about the individual and positive rights. They detest anything which reduces the individuals right to do something. You should own what you want, do what you want and anythong (especially a state) stopping you is coercive.

The socialist sees this as insufficient because the wider world impinges on freedom regardless of legal individual rights. Freedom of Speech won't feed your children and real choice is mitigated by material circumstances.

I used libertarianism as the 'classic' definition of free market thought. Others on the right care less about individual freedom and are happy to be anti immigration, spend lots on military, legislate against gay marriage etc.

Thanks for the good question. A lot of politics posts have been inane trolling in the past few weeks.

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okaybut · 56-60, M

@Burnley123 I will tell you a bit where my question is coming from. In part in comes from my experience discussing Trump or Obama. There appears to be from the left a disgust for anyone who supports Trump. That they are must stupid or even revolting. From the right they look very poorly upon those support Obama, but not quite the same level of disgust. I got to thinking that it is because for the left (I know the hard ideological) they are a community, you need to conform to the community otherwise you are a dangerous outsider. For the hard right they are less of a community and thus you are not looking entirely as an outsider. Before I have looked at it in terms of emotion, which I believe still holds to some degree. And in terms of the collective it makes sense. The hard left are a community joined together emotionally - they have a sense of belonging. For the hard right it is less so...you are joined by facts or an ideology. I know there is extreme generalization in what I am outlining, just trying to ponder a bit. For myself I am center right (economic right and moral left/freedoms, possibly even a libertarian). I see you have stated your are somewhat left, so I would be interested in your view along the lines of this comment?

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@okaybut I'll gladly reply because this is an interesting discussion.

Firstly, I am British and much as I do follow American politics and recognise similarities, I recognise big political cultural differences too.

Fistly, Europeans conceptualise the political world firstly through class and economic politics to so e degree and only secondarily through 'identity' politics. This is especially true of me because Im a democratic socialist. There is a culture war in the UK but its very different.

I respectfully disagree on your perspective of the left because 'the left' is such a broad and nebulous term. Is Hillary Clinton a leftist? She is pro war and free market by even average American public opinion. Socialism, market liberalism, social liberalism and anarchism cam all be called left and have different, if overlapping ideological views.

Nonetheless, American politics is very partisan and very personality based. I do dispair that Trump tweets dominate debates on here. I disagree with people who see all Trump or Brexit supporters are racist. I also find the deep hatred of Hillary and Obama really weird and extreme.

I am partisan. I'm a Labour Part member and support Jeremy Corbyn. I am 'hard left' in terms of ideology but also a pragmatist. I don't like name calling and I value real discussion.

Sorry if that was rambling. Lol

okaybut · 56-60, M

@Burnley123 Not rambling at all...good thoughts. Let me think about it.

CopperCicada · M

The right and the left are about serving their parties and special interest and corporate sponsors. That's about it.

Which is why on the right there is no room for you if you're a classical liberal, cultural conservative, constiutionalist, or non-evangelical religious conservative. Or an atheist, or are pro-life. Or deviate from the script in anyway.

And which is why on the left there is no room for you if you're a real progressive, green, or socialist. Or have a racial or gender politics beyond race, woman, and queer checking. Or are a person of faith and that faith is forefront in your politics despite liberal values. Don't color outside the lines.

This last US election was far from right versus left. It was Trump versus Hillary and all the special interest and corporate sponsors who bankrolled them.

I mean. Wow. George Will and Mary Matalin left the Republican party. And on the left black intellectuals like bell hooks and Michelle Alexander turned on Hillary.

The ideological cores are soft on each side.

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CopperCicada · M

@Burnley123 so how would i feel given the choice of hillary or trump? 🙄

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CopperCicada Not great and my impression is that a lot of Americans are the same. I've previously had the choice between Tony Blair and Michael Howard, post Iraq War

okaybut · 56-60, M

@CopperCicada So...you believe that both the hard right and left support their collective interests in a similar manner?

33person · 26-30, M

I'd say the following:
The traditional right is more collective on social issues and more individualistic on economics; the opposite for the traditional left. Libertarians on the right are individualistic on both. Authoritarian leftists (eg. Stalin) would be collectivist on both.

okaybut · 56-60, M

@33person Very good points...thanks.

katielass · F

Yes, the right supports individual rights and the left is totalitarian in their views.

okaybut · 56-60, M

@katielass You get totalitarianism on the right as well? And most great change has come from the left. I preface this and say I am mostly right winged in my views (more libertarian).

But the question I have for you is, what you define as totalitarian be their notion of equality and collective values where they exclude those who do not belong?

katielass · F

@okaybut The right is not even close to totalitarian in the US, that describes the US left. It was the right that fought slavery, and that's probably the biggest advancement in US history. Further, it isn't the right that's intolerant here, it's the left, which is precisely why I side with the right. I do not agree with their platform but I disagree more with the intolerance and totalitarianism we see on the left. I still believe in the constitution, not just the parts that I find convenient.

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