Would you say the left more collective and right individualistic?

I have been thinking about differences in the way left-wing thinks versus right-wing.

Would you agree that the left suppresses individual liberties to conform with the good of the community as they see it. That they seek a consensus of thought and judge those who think differently as less? How else could this be phrased?

Would you agree that the right is about suppressing collective values to serve individual needs. They lack empathy for the plight of collective as a whole. They judge the good of the whole as less than that of the individual? How else could this be phrased?

I am attempting to better understand the communication gap between the right and the left. From most of the threads I see on politics there is so very little actually exchanged, where each party is merely shouting at the other. I am being to think it is not as much ideology as a way of thinking of one's place in society.

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CopperCicada · M

The right and the left are about serving their parties and special interest and corporate sponsors. That's about it.

Which is why on the right there is no room for you if you're a classical liberal, cultural conservative, constiutionalist, or non-evangelical religious conservative. Or an atheist, or are pro-life. Or deviate from the script in anyway.

And which is why on the left there is no room for you if you're a real progressive, green, or socialist. Or have a racial or gender politics beyond race, woman, and queer checking. Or are a person of faith and that faith is forefront in your politics despite liberal values. Don't color outside the lines.

This last US election was far from right versus left. It was Trump versus Hillary and all the special interest and corporate sponsors who bankrolled them.

I mean. Wow. George Will and Mary Matalin left the Republican party. And on the left black intellectuals like bell hooks and Michelle Alexander turned on Hillary.

The ideological cores are soft on each side.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CopperCicada This is politics defined by the mainstream of each American Party, each with their heavy emphasis on economics.

I think both American parties have two broad factions. The Democrats have Sanders progressives and Clinton liberals. The Republicans have classical Conservatives and Trumpster nationalists. Of those four factions, only one is genuinely left and also anti corporate.

CopperCicada · M

@Burnley123 Sure. I generally write from my experience. Go to part meeting, any party meeting. You're eating and drinking with people you think you're going to create change with. Then you realize it's a fixed menu. Eat it or go hungry.

And that is why we have political stasis in America. There needs to be a way to get people on the right and left together against the corporate monster. And we can't do that with litmus tested party identities.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CopperCicada From the outside, it looks to me that the only hope comes from the left side of the Democrats. I don't think the nationalist are serious about economic populism, at least judged by the actions of Trump and the Mercers.

I think there is a problem in America that most people seem to relate to politics based on their attitude to Trump and/or the culture war. 'Do you agree Trump is a deplorable man?' 'lolz...triggeted snowflake libtard'.

This is what I see a lot on SW and it is a distraction from understanding actual power structures or fighting economic equality. Maybe this is the point you are making?

CopperCicada · M

@Burnley123 I think it is the point I'm making. I like to play the thought experiment of what America would be like if we had a parliamentary system. The progressive left would be making governments with alienated voices on the right, or the corporate right and left would have to genuinely reach out to its own fringe. It's not clear how that happens in the bipartisan winner take all system where each party alienates its dissonate voices.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CopperCicada Britain is on one hand different and on one hand the same.

Our parliamentary system is also fptp and two parties dominate parliament. Their are rebellions on the issue of Brexit on the right and foreign policy on the left but that is rare. One big differences is that most envisage politics through economics first and through culture second.

I'm a Labour Party member and I have found that my own anti corporate sentiments [i]necessitate[/i] me being partisan to some degree. The Labour left is the only part of either major party which is serious about confronting corporate vested interests. The rich and powerful don't like that, which is why their are efforts to distract and reframe the issues.

CopperCicada · M

@Burnley123 As an example, where do I fit into American politics?

I'm solidly Pirate Party in that I think government should be open sourced and that IP laws reconsidered as they hinder development and competition.

I'm a progressive when it comes to social issues. Like Pirate Party I'm solidly on human rights, but see libertarian emphasis on basic liberties a better avenue than identity politics.

I'm flat out democratic socialist when it comes to things like healthcare. Just solve the problem next.

I have an affinity for the Austrian free market liberals but something of a Keynsian at a macro level as I'm agnostic about aggregate demand driving an economy.

I'm good with public expressions of faith but want an infinite wall between church and state. I'm nationalistic in that I feel we're failing to communicate civics, history, etc.

I'm intensely mid-east anti-interventionist but strongly pro my hemisphere in terms of nation building not state building, humanitarian intervention.

Personally I'm very religious, but nowhere near the base of the American right. I'm pro choice, pro LBGT.

I'm pro 1A but feel we underdefine speech as conduct. I'm pro 2A but think we have a mental problem re violence. I think the left and right both fucked us with 4A.

I love diversity and have no problem with shifting racial demographics-- but am aggressive with immigration.

So I can jump into any political flavor and find something-- except a seat at the table.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CopperCicada Thanks for that. I think you vary between libertarian centre left and radical left (by American standards) overall. You are a centrist and a consenualist on political strategy, which is where we maybe differ.

This is my reading of American politics and I think others are in a better position to judge. I think you would be a Green Party supporter in the UK.

CopperCicada · M

@Burnley123 so how would i feel given the choice of hillary or trump? 🙄

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CopperCicada Not great and my impression is that a lot of Americans are the same. I've previously had the choice between Tony Blair and Michael Howard, post Iraq War

okaybut · 56-60, M

@CopperCicada So...you believe that both the hard right and left support their collective interests in a similar manner?