China's government is practicing Confucianism. Why is this a threat?

@SumKindaMunster Looks like we will have to fight it out to find out who reigns supreme on the planet. It's about time we put our supremacy to the test. We have been pushing small guys around since Vietnam. It's about time we take on someone in the same weight class: heavyweights. We now have two: Russia and China.

I wouldn't want to miss this fight to the death. Ali knocked out Foreman. I don't think Ali could have survived going against Foreman and Tyson at the same time.

@sree251 As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about. I responded to your post relevantly and provided a rebuttal, and you respond with a non sequitur about war and boxers.

Why do you post such things if you aren't going to defend your positions?

@SumKindaMunster
My positions? What do you think they are? I tell you that China's government is practicing Confucianism and it sailed right over your head as though it is the same one screwed onto Joe Biden's body. Don't get me wrong. I am not disrespecting you. I am disappointed that you have an American mindset even though it is better than most.

I know that the US State Department views China as a threat despite the fact that China is our third largest trading partner after Canada and Mexico. Does it make sense to you or are you as brain dead as Blinken mouthing official foreign policy?

Think, man. We are not discussing politics. This is a philosophy thread. And my position is that China is practicing Confucianism, not Marxist communism. When the US goes on a war footing, demonization of the enemy is set in the American mind. We see the chicoms now standing with the ruskies and the ragheads.

Confucianism is about the family. Taiwan is family, a part of China. There are literally relatives of the same Chinese families on both sides of the Taiwan Straits. China wants re-unification with the province of Taiwan and is willing to wait 100 years for that to gradually happen. There are also Chinese politicians in Taiwan with personal interests at stake fronting US anti-China policy. We Americans don't really care about the people whose interests we pretend to be fighting for. Who are our allies that are being threatened? Both Taiwan and the Philippines are China's major trading partners also.

@SumKindaMunster
Yours is an American perspective of social order. It's a rules-based order that has no regard for anyone else. Damn everybody. If it's not American and does not meet our idea of justice, then fuck it. This attitude, which is now ingrained, has been cultivated since WW2 and we have been kicking asses since because we could.

Back in 1945, after WW2 was won by the main allies comprising the US, UK, USSR, and China, they got together to re-setting world order. Taiwan, forcibly taken and occupied by Japan, had to be returned to China. The US kept troops in Taiwan using it as a military base to support the Korean and Vietnam wars fighting communism. This is the fruitful and mutually beneficial relationship you pointed to.

In 1979, the US established formal relationship with China recognizing her sovereignty over all territories including Taiwan. Since then, China-Taiwan cross border trade has been growing steadily and peacefully in a one country two system arrangement.

Taiwan still practices democracy without interference from Beijing. What's wrong with that? Do Americans care? No. For some strange reason, you do, and are pissed off when some Chinese in Taiwan feel they cannot break away from China. How many more trillions of US debt do you want to rack up to tell Beijing to piss off over Taiwan? The need to strut comes with costs in terms of human lives and suffering. The US elites suffer not, and never do, everybody else does.

@sree251
Yes, that's correct. While I don't agree with everything the American government does, I think they are being appropriately prudent in recognizing the threat that China presents to the US world order. Why wouldn't I? I am an American and a Westerner.

Are you saying that China has a right to invade and take over Taiwan? If so, can you detail why?


It's interesting to me that you completely overlook the Chinese Communist revolution and WHY China and Taiwan are so at odds. You don't think this is relevant? Part of the reason we did step in is because both sides were attacking each other in the middle of the Korean war. The US was looking to put a stop to an expansion of hostilities. There is no shame in America's forging of a relationship with Taiwan after they were driven out of mainland China. We picked a side, but it was a good choice. It's not America's concern that China seeks retribution against Taiwan for something that happened over 50 years ago.


I'm not mad at all. We are having a discussion. I'm trying to understand your viewpoint and WHY you have chosen it. Why are you taking China's side on this? I mean, I get that you are not happy with the way the American elites are provoking this confrontation but why does that mean China is correct here? Both sides could be completely and selfishly looking after their own national interests, its difficult to see morally who is correct here.

@SumKindaMunster
There are two separate issues here: 1. China threat to US world order, and 2. China's right to invade Taiwan.

Let's look at issue No. 1. I agree that China does present a threat to the US world order. How do you see that threat? Is it a military threat? Our military is much more formidable by far in terms of hardware. We have 1000 military bases and many of them are jam packed in Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines; B2 nuclear bombers in Guam, carrier strike groups in the Pacific accompanied by nuclear subs. The only thing China has that can harm us are nuclear warheads. I understand that, unlike the US and Russia, China's ICBMs are not armed with those warheads in peace time. I guess it is peace time because China's container ships and Boeings are still moving goods to America like lines of ants. Ours and Russia's are all ready and set to go. We have servicemen in missile silos working on shifts 24/7 waiting for Biden's command to launch.

The threat that China presents to US world order is not an offensive military force. China can eat our lunch and that's an existential threat. We know there is no way to compete with those Chinese ants that work nonstop 24/7. And they are no longer making knockoff American brands but indigenous products that can compete in the marketplace.

Issue No. 2. Taiwan is not Ukraine. Taiwan is China's territory. Taiwan to China is like Texas to America. If Texas wants to secede it is not China's business to provide Texas with nuclear weapons and send troops to prevent the US military from invading Texas. Does this make sense to you?

@sree251 Issue 1: China provides a threat to the US world order for sure. I don't believe it is a military, nor a manufacturing threat. Rather its a threat of influence and having the option to turn to China instead of the US when you need money. Are you familiar with China's "Belt and Road initiative"? This is where China is seeking to supplant the US. By being the stable and dependable moderator, willing to offer its money and influence for favorable treatment later. Take a look at what is happening in Africa for some examples of how this is hurting us. Multiple countries in Africa have turned away from the US and are looking to China and Russia for assistance and guidance. Meanwhile our credibility is shredded by our backing of Israel and its actions in Gaza, etc. Multiple, stalwart allies like India, Brazil, and South Africa have turned away from the US and are dealing with both China and Russia much to our displeasure.

Issue 2: For this analogy to be apt, it would need to be along the following lines:

The US experienced a political revolution that took overthrew the government. The displaced regime ran to Texas and setup its own government in exile. Over the years China stepped in as peacemaker on both sides, but developed a special bond with Texas due to shared values. Over the years the US regime threatened Texas and said it had every right to destroy the regime of Texas by any means necessary, and it was our destiny. Does this help make the situation a little more clear?

I find it interesting that while you reject the idea of China being a threat due to it coming from American Elites, you wholly accept China's position on the issue. Why is that?

@SumKindaMunster
Do I accept the China threat? No, not if it means losing our American way of life under the occupation of China either politically or culturally. I don't even accept losing our American way of life to atheists who wage a war on Christmas, rainbow people messing up our kids minds, politicians opening our borders to migrants without regard to their welfare and assimilation into our culture.

I subscribe to the American value of freedom in a world where all are allowed to pursue happiness that is not harmful to anyone and anything. I believe in free competition in the marketplace and all areas of human endeavor. If China can beat us at our own game practicing our ethos of freedom, good for them. They are doing that right now. Our American Elites are threatening China with 100% tariffs on their EVs now rolling out of factories in Mexico. Do you want to pay $9,000 for a Chinese EV or a $20,000 American made truck? Since when have Americans become a marginalized people who needs affirmative action? We believe that Chinese goods are inferior and crappy. I am very happy with my amazingly affordable and good power tools (DeWalt, Milwaukee, Black & Decker): all American brands made in China. Chinese EVs are designed by BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari. They all run on cutting edge batteries made in China. It's the same deal with Chinese made semiconductors that operate American designed Apple phones and F35 fighter jets. The writing is on the wall: we either work with the Chinese or we die. They are a manufacturing threat! No other country can make cutting edge stuff that cheap.

Yes, I am familiar with the Belt and Road initiative. The reason why third world countries are turning away from us is that we have been bombing them since Vietnam. South American countries hate us. We could have built our own Belt and Road from California and Texas thru Mexico down to Chile and developed the entire continent. Third world indigenous cultures are incapable of building and running developed societies. This is where we could have come in and help them out like what China is doing: built roadways, railways, power grids, fiber optic internet corridors, modern cities. Then, we wouldn't need to build a wall to keep them people out. We would have an open border bringing in, not migrants, but farm produce for our stores and supermarkets. Meanwhile, we are bad mouthing China's Belt and Road as a nefarious scheme to subjugate and rob poor countries of their natural resources.

We could have had conquered the world after WW2 and nearly did. American products and popular culture are loved all over the planet. Three quarters of the world speak English, a vital medium of communication for disseminating western thinking. Instead, we resort to the use of hard power and squandered all our wealth on building the greatest military the world has ever known. And we bombed the shit out of everyone telling them they are either for us or against us. Now, that the Chinese dragon has grown and set to tower over us, they are choosing to stand with China. Russia tried to join us but we could not find a way to share power and have driven the bear to team up with the dragon against the American eagle.

It's not going to be as easy for China to sinicize the world that we have anglicized. The Chinese language is not easy to learn. I suspect the Chinese are pragmatic, and will meet others halfway thru the use of English. Have you been to Hong Kong? You have no idea how accommodating the Chinese are to westerners. A lot more than the Japanese can ever be. If they had won WW2, we would have been forced to learn Japanese.

We had our chance to rule the world and we blew it. I don't fear the China threat. The Chinese don't have our despicable Christian evangelical streak. They will naturally be dominant. As it is, their numbers are already nearly 2 billion if you include the Chinese diaspora numbering 500 million outside China. The most vital contribution that China can make in terms of moderation will be stopping any nuclear confrontation between us and Russia. China's Belt and Road is for encircling a world without wars, a world where all cultures are free to thrive. Nuclear disarmament will be necessary.

The only threat to us is the US Dollar. The American Elites could risk everything to keep it afloat for self-preservation. There is no way out for them. Playing hardball is all they know. Janet Yellen has our fate in her hands. It is not good.

@SumKindaMunster BRILLIANT!

@SumKindaMunster
The US happened to be in Taiwan after WW2 where the displaced Chinese regime escape to. The US neither played the role of peacemaker nor had shared values with Chiang Kai Shek's Chinese regime in Taiwan anymore than it had shared values with the Ngo Dinh Diem regime in South Vietnam. Both puppets were corrupt warlords of the kind demonized for Americans to hate. They are presented as the good guys by the American Elites for dealing with bad guys (i.e. communists). In the case of Taiwan, the bad guy was Chairman Mao. Fast forward to 1972 when Nixon went to China to get Mao's help for a dignified US disengagement from the Vietnam War. America was about ready to ditch Taiwan in support of China's entry into the UN. America is treacherous and a fair weather friend. It's amazing how we are able to screw people over and we never run short of suckers willing to be shafted by Uncle Sam. Taiwan is back in play now that China's rise has become a threat.

As an American, have you ever wondered if you smell as bad as the American Elites?

@SumKindaMunster
Maybe what? Are you unsure about where we are heading with regard to US world order enforcement? Surely, you can't be that brutal. We have literally killed millions of people to-date and are supporting the same policy in Gaza: keep pounding others into submission like a Mike Tyson in the ring. It has become obvious to the world that the US has no integrity and capable of resorting to any means fair or foul to deal with resistance. If push comes to shove, I don't think that either China or Russia has any hesitation in taking out the US in an all out military conflict. The point is this: China knows that Armageddon is the trump card of the loser who would rather die than let anyone win. China has dreams of a better world and has only just begun. The US has seen better days and is struggling to stay afloat. China doesn't have to do a thing to watch us drown. This is so sad because we are better than what we have become. I have always believed that we are the good guys. How did we turned so rotten? We can't be trusted. Perhaps, we have always been rotten. White men speaking with forked tongue was way back when?


What is the Chinese political worldview? I don't have a clue. Do you have any idea?

@sree251 So a couple of thoughts...not sure why the hostility, I thought we were just talking. 🤔

Yes, American Elites are condescending...how does this make China a better nation? Because they don't condescend to others? That's definitely not true, they do it all the time.

I'm not going to answer your question about "helping" as it is irrelevant to my point that the US gives money to help other nations.

I'm not going to respond to your charged comment about skunks and self hate.

"Maybe" as in, maybe you have it correct about America's attitude towards China, I asked if you believed if the situation was reversed, and either China or Russia had a demonstrable advantage in world politics, that they would execute it, and subjugate America or the West if they could?

You don't? Then how do you know all the following?:







This all sounds like you have swallowed Chinese propaganda. Why are you so confident in all this? It is just more propaganda. You rightfully call out American propaganda, but you seem to be just fine with Chinese propaganda.

Can you explain the distinction?

@SumKindaMunster
Chinese propaganda? How do they get to us? I don't do tiktok. My only source of info on China is through American business channels and finance publications here in the US. I used to travel quite a bit before Covid and lived for months at a time in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Singapore. There are lots of Americans in those places and we talked. It isn't propaganda when you are on the ground taking in the facts of situations for yourself first hand, stuff corroborated by other fellow Americans pissed off with their own politicians in DC making life hard for them in Hong Kong and China. One of the guys I met lost everything in the Hong Kong riots. American business do very well in China since they moved there in droves after Nixon went there in 1972. European businesses are there also.

It's not Chinese propaganda. They don't do this sort of thing. I have not met a single Chinaman over there who could communicate with westerners well enough to fool us even if they tried. They don't think like us. Cheating in business is something else, and they could be better at it. We are straight shooters by nature.

@sree251 Gotcha. So its personal anecdotes and conversations you had with like minded individuals during your travels abroad.


Please. Of course they do.

@SumKindaMunster
The Chinese ants working 24/7 is not propaganda. The Chinese in Hong Kong fear them and called them locusts coming out of mainland China devouring everything in their path. I don't particularly like them myself. They are kinda crude. I can even see that crudeness coming thru Miles Kwok, the smooth talking Chinese billionaire who has been spewing anti-China propaganda to win a place in our hearts.

At the end of the day, we are all humans with similar responses to perceived threats and equally selfish. As a westerner, I can't help being biased and feel that we have a better sense of civility than folks from other cultures. I see it in the way we live. We use napkins in restaurants. We make and wear fine clothes. We set the standard in living the good life. The Chinese have a long way to go lifting their 1.4 billion people out of poverty. They have to do it their way in order to succeed; and they have to ensure the whole population get with the program set by China's government. They can't afford American style democracy designed for herding cats. And I am a cat by nature. I would never want to live in China. I refused to get vaccinated for Covid, chose to self-isolate and stopped traveling abroad since 2020. I would not have been able to do this in China or any other country. This kind of personal freedom is not a small thing to me. I wish we could do a better job at running our country and give ourselves the cred for running the world.

@sree251 Thank you for the discussion, it was interesting and I learned a few things from you. I wish we, as Americans, could do better as well.

You are likely old enough to remember that in the 80's, we were all warned that the Japanese were going to ruin our economy with their cheap efficiency.

In the early 2000's I recall being told by many a bitter person that I should not bother to try to break into Information Technology because all the jobs were going overseas to India. I didn't listen and have enjoyed a long and fruitful career in IT Support.

There is ALWAYS some threat to American exceptionalism. I wish we did a better job managing all this.

@SumKindaMunster
Like-minded? Those are American businessmen, not guys on social media targeted by the communications scientists working for the State Department and intelligence services. When you run a business in China, you work for yourself, and you have your own skin in the game. Do you see Elon Musk or Warren Buffet bad-mouthing China's government? They don't even care if the American manufacturing sector is hollowed out. We are a free market economy and we practice capitalism. Right? There is no affirmative action in a merit based balanced playing field. Americans should practice what we preach at home and abroad. We don't. We practice hypocrisy. In doing so, we are destroying American society and making an ass of ourselves on the world stage.

@SumKindaMunster
American exceptionalism. There is truth to this. It is stunning when I see American brinkmanship in action. The Neil Armstrong moon landing in 1961. It was 63 years ago before you were born! Then there was the 2008 subprime mortgage crisis engineered by Barney Frank that nearly took down the world. No other people except us are so unfettered in reaching for the stars. Bernie Madoff was stunning.

There is no threat to American exceptionalism. Not even close. We are a strange breed. There is no way China can compete with us in that regard. There are only plodders out there. We seem to have lost our moho.

@sree251 So point of clarity..the moon landing was 1969. And thanks again for your thoughts.