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King Arthur


I am studying the Anglo Saxons for a presentation on Christianity in East Anglia. I recently attended a talk on King Arthur. I would be interesting to have other people's input on the historical aspect of the Authurian legends and possibly any suggestions as where the supposed 12 battles actually took place.
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DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
Disregard everything from the fables accept the round table which has even earlier references around 1115 CE.

Please bear in mind the best fiction is usually based on a little bit of truth. And I do suspect that table is a little bit of the truth....

https://www.thecollector.com/true-history-round-table-king-arthur/

There's nothing magical about a round table for any band of knights.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@DeWayfarer Jacko is studying Saxon English history though.

The round-table myths are French in origin and set in Norman Mediaeval times. They are a red herring!
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@ArishMell From that link above
In the slightly earlier Culhwch and Olwen, a Welsh tale, one of the characters lists over 200 allies of Arthur. The basic idea that Arthur led a group of many allies can actually be found as far back as the earliest summary of his career. This is the Historia Brittonum, written in c. 830. This account presents Arthur as a war leader who led “the kings of the Britons” into battle against the Anglo-Saxons.



This indicates that the basic concept of Arthur leading a large band of men, who were rulers rather than merely soldiers, is a very early one. It was not the invention of later French writers.

Not the first time that I have heard about this either.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@DeWayfarer The original Arthur story was English but drawn on French sources.

830BCE is about 400 years after the end of the Roman occupation, so far too early for the Mediaeval setting of the Arthur stories. The later embellishments (e.g. Lancelot, the Holy Grail, modern Hollywoodisms and "New Age" notions about Tintagel and Glastonbury) are just grotesque.

It's feasible, just, that Malory's sources were by French writers who had seen some later edition of the Historia Brittonum; but who promoted the hypothetical Arthur from a warrior-leader to a king? And king of what, exactly? Not of Wales, nor of England, which developed via assorted mini-kingdoms into a more cohesive Saxon entirety eventually ended by the Normans' take-over.

The reliability of the HB is itself questionable, even without Malory's imaginative re-workings of third-hand tales hundreds of years after the Historia was written.

The era did see plenty of strife, including between the Britons and Saxons; but if we want to understand it properly we do need reject fiction written centuries later.

Those times used to be called "The Dark Ages" thanks to blending the collapse of the rather romanticised Roman Empire, with the paucity of real records of the time. Historians now realise the era had more going for it than we thought; but we need Saxon and other contemporary histories and church records, not Mediaeval novels, to know it properly.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@ArishMell I do say disregard most of the fables. Just the existence of "This is the Historia Brittonum, written in c. 830." Says something is missing.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@DeWayfarer Oh, there is plenty missing from that era! It must be frustrating trying to establsih just who really did what, where and when due to so few reliable records.
ArtieKat · M
@ArishMell Just to quibble:
830BCE is about 400 years after the end of the Roman occupation
I think you need to delete the "B". I find it's far more straightforward to avoid political correctness and stick with the terms "BC" and "AD" - and I'm a non-believer
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@ArtieKat Sorry - I mean AD. Or CE.

Not sure why I added the 'B' but it is of course wrong by some 800 years!

As for "political correctness" I see neither set of abbreviations in any such terms, and the 'C' stands for "Common" not "Christ". I'm not religious either.