Government relief of US college debt...

Have we reached the point predicted two hundred years ago where Congress has figured out how to bribe the American people with the people's own money??

We raise taxes (the people's money) and use it to subsidize everything from cheap oil and computer chips to bankrupt banks and auto makers. We use it to provide economic stimulus payments in down times and now to pay off student debts.

I know I've posted in the past about my support for access to abortion services and my support of marriage equality and transgender acceptance so many of you might consider me to be quite liberal across the board. And it's true that I support many liberal/progressive issues. But when it comes to economics and individual responsibility I tend to the fairly extreme right side of politics.

I don't support government subsidies. Period.

I think oil companies should pay fair market value for the land they drill on.
I think coal companies should pay the full life cycle cost of their ore.
I think solar electric should also should pay its full life cycle costs.
Same with wind.

If your car company can't make a profit, then maybe the guy who buys your factory from the bankruptcy court can.

If your bank is too big to fail, then take better care of it. Don't come to me with your hands out when you screw up.

And, if you borrow money to buy a home or get an education, then have a plan to pay it back.

It's called capitalism and, until it is replaced by something else, it is the system we have in place.

Let me tell you a story about one of my cousins. He's a couple years younger than I am. He's really a second cousin or maybe third, I'm not quite sure how all that works. In any case, he came to me when I was in my second year at university because he wanted to go to college and it wasn't looking possible for him. So we talked about it.

He wanted to go for the traditional four year bachelor's degree. He was really into theater arts and stage lighting and audio production. I asked him a simply question ... In that world would a bachelor's degree impact his income? In other words, how many years would it take for the increased income take to pay off the cost of a four year degree? A simple "return on investment" conversation (and no, I wasn't a business major).

He looked into it. What he found was stunning to us both. In that world, people with a degree and people without a degree made essentially the same money. It was crazy. He decided to take the savings he was able to blow on a first semester and instead bought some equipment. If I remember right, it was a trailer to cart stuff around and a bunch of lights and cables and speakers and some kind of board to control audio ... and he started going around to various venues and bars and clubs and offered to run events for them. He was 18.

My grandfather provided a lot of really good business advice and today he is 26 and has three crews running around Boston doing corporate events during the day and evening events at bars and clubs. No degree, no debt.

My point in bringing him up in this conversation about education debt is because he did assess (at my urging) what the debt of a four year degree would end up costing him and whether the benefit of that degree would support that debt. In his field it would not.

For other's the calculation may be different, but it is a basic calculation that anyone taking on any kind of debt (education, real estate, car, etc) should and could run. This is not advanced calculus.

So when I hear that people are strapped with huge debt and can't make their payments, I do feel bad. But I think it is fair to ask how they got into that situation and whether it is due to matters beyond their control or not.
- Took on loans and then got sick and couldn't finish school? Okay, legit issue and maybe some relief should be offered.
- Took on loans without thinking of payback and now don't make enough to support the debt? We have a process to handle this already in place. It is called bankruptcy. It comes with consequences, but it works and is fair to borrower and lender.

Am I too harsh here? Are we responsible for our decisions?

Edit: I became aware through the comments below and some personal research that student debt cannot be eliminated through bankruptcy. This is crazy. The concept of bankruptcy is critical to the smooth functioning of a capitalist economy. If someone truly took on too much debt through poor planning, then bankruptcy should be available to them and the federal guaranty would kick in and make the lender whole.

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Scribbles · 36-40, F

I've heard arguments like this to one degree or another.

I think it is a deeply unwise, selfish, harmful, callous, privileged thing to bear no responsibility for a bad system like student loan debt and place all the responsibility on young people like 18 year olds or on individuals and say it's their own fault for being scammed or being in a bad system. And then support a system that puts many young people at a disadvantage early.in their adult life. Bankruptcy doesn't save you from student loans even. So I often advise students on helpful ways to stay on top of their loan debt when they need to start repaying.

And Sara you are lucky. I see University students all day long. The majority of people are not as privileged as you are. Sorry. But there it is.

I'm lucky I have been able to pay all bills and loans. I didn't start off with a high income, or with someone helping me pay for anything. I barely made things work. By sleeping four hours a day and working one full-time and one part time job and going to school the rest and nursing a family.member and paying their bills and my own and having loans in between when I could. I worked double shifts and two jobs every weekend. All this to go to uni and have an apartment and cheap food (sometimes bread with salad dressing) and be responsible. I worked multiple jobs after University for years. Because 1 full-time job would not pay enough. Some people cannot do this insane schedule. Nor should they. Imagine if I had to feed and take care of kids, or had to deal with divorce or recession, or getting laid off of job after job because recession. Or have medical debt, or a disability, on top of all that! Freaking impossible.

You mention relief based upon need. But is it right to give relief based on upon expecting people to give up dignity, pride, and privacy by disclosing their private hardships?

In my opinion it should not be irresponsible to work just one full-time job and still be unable to pay your loans. And yet for 90 percent of people in debt that is the case. Should they make the decision to never see family and friends because they have medical or education debt and they need to hold down multiple jobs? Then they end up as an irresponsible parent. Catch 22. Super freaking great. The only people who win are those with privilege. Hands down.

Most people in Massive debt-it's not their fault. And yet they get stuck with it for decades and called irresponsible because they weren't able to avoid it or pay it off successfully, and naturally the system punishes them further and it becomes harder and harder and more impossible to pay it and everything else in life. Bad credit score? Good luck getting a roof over your head!

Are people irresponsible sometimes? Yes. But should education or healthcare be an irresponsible choice?

Responsible people.get.stuck.with massive medical debt sometimes. Is it their responsibility too?
it is made to be their responsibility. It's apparently also their spouses responsibility sometimes too. I know people who choose to die then get medical care and be able to live because of the price because they know how awful debt is.

Should people be responsible for their decisions? Yes. Is it humane or responsible or right or wise or beneficial for a government and country to allow people to have massive debt for things like EDUCATION, housing, food, and HEALTHCARE? Is it right to allow such people to leave miserable lives for decades to pay off massive loans for such BASIC things?

Sure people can still be held responsible for their decisions and to pay reasonable loans...and not overpriced swill because capitalism demands we take advantage of people. but we can at least allow people to have a roof, have healthcare, education, and food while doing so at the fucking least.

I'm a huge supporter of socialized healthcare and tax paid tuition free education. I think homelessness caused by a bad credit score is more a shameful reflection on society then individuals. I admire Germany, Denmark, etc. and how New Mexico is making a go at it. New Mexico who only needed to allocate 1 percent of the state budget to do this. It doesn't always take much to improve lives.

I care about improving people's lives. I don't care about their circumstances, or if they have made mistakes. Improving lives means building people up instead of casting them adrift into a sea of debt over education or medical reasons and judging them for it and saying it's ok.

Quite frankly, I'd rather my taxes help pay for people's healthcare, housing, food, and education then for corporate welfare or provide taxcuts to the rich, etc.

Frankly after reading this, I'm reminded why I can't wait to leave America. I'm aware other countries have problems, but at least some of them care quite a bit more about people's quality of living then here in America.

SunshineGirl · 36-40, F

@Scribbles Education, healthcare, housing and nutrition are public goods and governments are wholly entitled to intervene where markets are operating inefficiently or against the public interest. I'm not fully acquainted with the US loan system, but ours in the UK has effectively broken down under the strain of high inflation. I think we are entering a post-capitalist era (thank goodness). Compared to some of the things governments have recentky lavished public subsidy on, this scheme does not look unmeritorious. I've got no personal interest, I was fortunate enough to be able to pay off my student debt five years ago.

Scribbles · 36-40, F

@SunshineGirl I paid off my student loans about five years ago too. Thank God. The interest was fucking terrible. You almost end up paying double just by spreading out payments for 10 years.

jackjjackson · M

You scrimped and saved and honored your obligation and feel others should not and the public at large should cover it for them? I’m in favor of two year government paid community college for all. No games. Straightforward. @Scribbles

jackjjackson · M

Every US tax payer should have a Medicare regardless of age. Non taxpayers should have Medicaid. There should be no cost for any of Re should never be a corporate bailout again. Perhaps loans where there is sufficient security that the government is guaranteed to be paid back. @Scribbles

sarabee1995 · 26-30, F

@jackjjackson And if the government doesn't get paid back, then it should seize the corporation's assets and sell them at auction. Imagine what the automotive industry today would look like if GM's assets were sold off to automotive upstarts! We'd have a dozen new companies bringing new ideas to the table. Instead we have Chevy and Cadillac. 🙄

jackjjackson · M

Agreed. @sarabee1995

Scribbles · 36-40, F

@jackjjackson Yes Jack, one of the reason why IS because of how hard I and others have to scrape by to pay off the loans. Why would I wish that on anyone else? I'm not a sociopath.

I firmly believe that education and healthcare should not put people in such terrible debt. Look at the people who ended up with massive bills because they had Covid and we're hospitalized with such severe pneumonia for a month, or because their kid has cancer. With interest they'll never pay that off with an average or above average job. So they stay in debt forever or they have to beg for money with go-fund-mes.

Interesting thought with medicare and Medicaid. In theory I suppose it's a nice idea. The reality is different. I pay attention to the people who have either Medicare or medicaid. It has a lot of problems.

sarabee1995 · 26-30, F

@Scribbles Yes, I learned through this discussion that bankruptcy would not relieve student loan debt. That is absurd. There is no sane reason why a person can walk from any other kind of debt, but not this.

Given that reality, I would absolutely be in favor of some relief, but likely still not in favor of the general relief offered here. Need to think about that more.

I'll respond to more of your points later when I get time. :)

jackjjackson · M

Why types of problems? @Scribbles

Scribbles · 36-40, F

@sarabee1995 General relief? You should read the details of Biden's plan.

Scribbles · 36-40, F

@jackjjackson Like any insurance you run into issues in which they don't want to cover some necessary things. It happens to TONS of people. I could be here all day, who has time for that?

I will provide one.example:
I have a coworker whose son is severely disabled. He has Medicare and Medicaid due to income and disability

For whatever reason they'd rather not pay an extra couple.hundred dollars for a medicine that doesn't require him to be rushed to the hospital via helicopter or ambulance every month. Even though the bill ends up thousands of dollars more to pay for the helicopter or ambulance each time. Nope he needs the medicine that gives him tons of side effects. Doesn't matter what the doctors and parents advocate for. Doesn't matter that pinching those pennies means paying thousands more. It's stupid. They will spend months arguing which insurance covers what while he waits for a life saving heart valve.replacement. But there it is.

It's still life saving.amd amazing to have the insurance to pay for things and only worry about the deductable money wise. But it's a bit broken all the same when it comes to advocating for good health decisions and medications and treatment.