Hamas itself admits it uses human shields and declares that Palestinians have a duty to serve was human shields. Even I know that. ________________________________
[quote][i]And as we established even with human shields it is the responsibility of the invader to minimize civilian casualties not the occupied[/i].[/quote]
[quote][i]You are determined to just ignore any and all facts that don't fit your narrative which is in support of a war crime.[/i][/quote] More "you statements." I'll add them to my list. Thank you! 👌
@flipper1966 On the human shields quotes from Hamas, it could be true but I'd need to see the original source, if you have it.
On Israel and not caring about human casualties, I agree with him. The human shields argument is something I have only ever heard from Israelis and to justify civilian casualties.
On stated war aims of Israel, we have reasons to be skeptical.
@Burnley123 I know this is a cliche but "it's complicated." The use of human shields is a war crime. I don't know how the illegality of the use of human shields affects Israel's criminal responsibility. I think that's a legal question that I can't answer. I do know this, however. For Hamas there's tremendous propaganda value in civilian casualties.
@flipper1966 My link reveals that full depopulation of Gaza has been discussed by the Israeli government. They deny it is being enacted but from my view, their actions suggest otherwise.
Two million people is a lot of human shield's right?
@flipper1966 Something else here is your claims of confirmed human shields is a decade old and you appear to be using it as justification for war crimes today.
How does that add up?
You also claimed the use of human shields removes any and all responsibility to protect civilians which is factually wrong.
@flipper1966 [quote]Depopulation constitutes ethnic cleansing. Definitely a war crime. No dispute. [/quote]
On this we can agree.
As of the news yesterday an "alternative" was also leaked (some say on purpose) that would involve the forced expulsion of Gazans into the Sinai desert where Egypt just stationed tanks BTW.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Here's what the Red Cross says about human shields. It is known that Hamas tells Gaza residents to ignore the IDF's early warnings that it is about to bomb a building. Hamas tells the residents to stay put and, in fact, condemns the IDF warnings as "psychological warfare" on Gaza residents. And again: The UN holds both Israel and Hamas guilty of violations of International law. Sometimes just who constitutes innocent victims can be hard to sort out. If a Gaza resident is warned to evacuate by the IDF but honors Hamas' call to stay put, is that Gaza resident an innocent victim? I don't know.
@flipper1966 First off "we told you to move" is not a justification. Seconde 1.1 million people were given 24 hours to relocate. No human migration that large has ever been possible in 24 hours.
We also know the IDF has been bombing the south where they told civilians they would be safe.
Also some of these "warnings" were absolutely information warfare but intended for western audiences.
The IDF gave a PSA to flee to the south in English when we know Gaza had no power and all comms in Gaza were shut down.
That would be like a US official giving a PSA to your city in Mandarin during a total blackout after shutting off cell towers in the region.
@flipper1966 And you are starting from the assumption that a medieval style siege is the only tactic available to the IDF. That is not even remotely true.
These tactics have only been a thing since Bibi Netanyahu came to power.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow There are deceptive reports [b][u]coming from both sides.[/u][/b] Remember, this is not just a military operation. It is also a propaganda war. It's important to appreciate how reports coming from one side [b][i]or the other [/i][/b]are intended to persuade third parties.
My reading of Israel's strategy, is that full depopulation of Gaza is the ultimate objective and they want to move as far as possible in that direction before world opinion forces them to stop.
So far, they are finding the PR war tougher than expected with western public opinion but so far, governments are only bending moderately and applying moderate pressure, which they can resist. They can ignore warnings and take a yellow card .
The fall-back option is presumably to annex the northern part of Gaza (which is already pretty much the stated plan) . Its well possible that either/or infantry causalities and infantry losses will stop them there.
If the current conflict dies down at that point, there would be little chance of allowing civilians to return to the north, leaving an overcrowded and starving community in the south and Egypt under pressure to take refugees from world governments.
Even to get to that point, the amount of civilian deaths due to bombs, starvation or disease would likely top a hundred thousand at a conservative estimate. I hope I am wrong, but this is my reading of the most likely outcome.
@flipper1966 No question there is an information war going on too. That goes for all wars.
But that doesn't change facts about tactics, what works and what doesn't. it also doesn't change statements made by the Israeli government openly calling for genocide.
@Burnley123 I do agree with you on most of it. But I think if the IDF gets bogged down it could actually end up worse for civilians.
Here is why. When you start taking heavy loses and have to deal with the backlash from more flag covered coffins back home the temptation to pull back and use air power and artillery to "make the rubble bounce" becomes really really tempting.
I am also worried by Egypt's decision to station MBTs in Sinai. This brings up images in my mind of refugees being forced straight onto the guns of the Egyptian army.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow If the IDF gets bogged down and it suffers heavy losses in Gaza, the Netanyahu government would also have to deal with growing internal opposition to the IDF operation.
@flipper1966 [quote]If the IDF gets bogged down and it suffers heavy losses in Gaza, the Netanyahu government would also have to deal with growing internal opposition to the IDF operation.[/quote]
Absolutely. That is my point. And unfortunately that makes dropping bombs from the air and artillery barrages even more tempting and more likely.
It is the "make the other guy die for their country" mentality.
@flipper1966 Israel's army is modern and well equpt. Most of their infantry is rookie conscripts though. They have said they will invade and that does seem to be happening, though much later and slower than advertised. But they said they'd do it so they kind of have to.
Grin though it is, the embargo of food, power and water is their most effective strategy for depopulating Gaza.
I don't approve of any of this and it's monstrous.
