@BohemianBoo Are you saying that a baby just appears whole at delivery? That it hasn't developed over 9 months ? Are you saying that a human being doesn't require to be alive to grow to birth ?
@missyann I'm saying that personhood doesn't begin until birth. Cells, which are alive, form a fetus in the womb, then when it comes out, it's a baby. If you think that cells should be treated as people, then a male commits mass murder every time he ejaculated.
@GovanDUNNY It's not a "baby" until it's born. The correct term is zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus, depending on the level of development. Please don't misuse words for their emotional effect. You wouldn't like it if I referred to pregnancy as "slavery."
Even if a ZEF is a person, no one has the right to use another person's body without their consent. If I'm on dialysis and need a kidney transplant, I can't take one of yours unless you freely give it to me. It's the same concept.
@BohemianBoo So you are saying a fully formed 9 month fetus isn't a human being 1 second before it leaves th birth canal and it should be legal to decapitate and dismember through abortion ?
Until the sperm and egg meet and fertilization occurs the sperm can go anywhere you want it to. No murder has occurred. These are not intelligent statements
@missyann I can't even go that far. As far as I'm concerned, third trimester, unless there's a compelling need, it's too late. @BohemianBoo has rather a more extreme view than I like. But for my money, until the brain begins to develop, and there's a way for a spirit to control the body, it's not yet a person.
@LordShadowfire I'm not sure what you mean when you say by spirit and brain development.
Let me ask you, if someone is on life support and are considered brain dead but they will be removed from it in 9 months and will be conscience to the world around them with the ability to function at a normal level. Should it be legal to decapitate and dismember that person while they are on life support not knowing wether they can feel pain or not ? Since no one who has ever had this done has been able to report back what they felt, we will never know.
@Lila15 So you are saying that a fully formed human being is not a baby one second before it leaves the birth canal ? How sad and pathetic you are.
No, you are not legally or morally obligated and cannot be forced to give a kidney without your permission even if I will die without it. This is much different than actively choosing to kill another person which is illegal especially when in most cases that person was invited and has permission to be there. Unless a woman has four arms and four legs two hearts etc..it IS NoT just her body we are talking about. There is ALWAYS a risk of pregnancy with sex.
I don't misuse words. I speak the truth. How someone feels.( Emotional effect ) is not my responsibility. If there is emotion then someone is rethinking their stance on abortion
@missyann [quote]I'm not sure what you mean when you say by spirit and brain development.[/quote] Fine, I'll elaborate. I don't think that before the brain develops, that it is possible for a spirit to attach itself to the body. That's when I believe it happens. [quote]Let me ask you, if someone is on life support[/quote] I'mma stop you right there.
[quote]I don't misuse words. I speak the truth.[/quote] You misuse words literally every day and twist the truth to suit your agenda.
@missyann The term for a human being immediately before birth is "fetus." It's a "baby" after it exits the birth canal. Calling it a "baby" before birth is emotional manipulation. You might as well call children "adults" since that's what they will be someday.
You say that not donating a kidney to someone who needs it to live isn't killing them, it's just letting them die. This is a version of the trolley problem. In case you're unfamiliar with it, this is a situation where a trolley is heading down a track that five people are tied to, and if you do nothing, the five people will die. There is a lever to divert the trolley to another track, but one person is tied to that one, so if you pull the lever, that person will die. So the question is whether it's worse to do nothing in this case and let five people die, or pull the lever and actively kill one person.
Is letting someone die when you could save them morally preferable to actively killing someone?
Also, the fact that there is a risk of pregnancy with sex doesn't obligate a woman to give birth, any more than a business owner is obligated to pay a bad employee forever just because they hired them. Pregnancy is a continuous process, so consent to it must also be continuous. This is why surrogates have to sign lengthy contracts, because you can't assume that they will finish the pregnancy just because they agreed to start it.
@Lila15 I believe that there is a difference in refusing to donate an organ than to intentionally stabbing that person in the head and dismembering them because they are in your way.
When you agree to have sex, you are agreeing with the possibility of pregnancy. I go to a bar and make the choice to drink, I don't have the right to kill the bartender because I have a hangover. Why don't pro abortion advocates ever say that a woman has at least some accountability for pregnancy ?
The employer can fire the employee without murdering them. It doesn't matter who the surrogate signs a contract with. If she has an abortion she is a mother who has murdered her baby
@missyann I disagree. There is no implied contract when you have sex. You sound like a rapist who says he had a right to rape a woman because she came up to his room and made out with him.
The employer is allowed to fire the employee, even if the employee will starve to death without their paycheck.
People are allowed to revoke consent to a process.
@Lila15 It is nothing like rape. If someone consents to have sex, they know that there is always possibility of pregnancy ( or should know ). If they don't want pregnancy they have a responsibility to use birth control. No birth control is 100℅, if used correctly its usually 95% effective. Doubling birth control is higher.
The employee has a responsibility to be an honest and good worker and follow the rules. If they choose not to be, the employer has every right to terminate them. If the employee knows that he will starve if he is fired then I would hope that he would do everything in his power to keep the job
Of course people have the right to back out of contracts and refuse to consent. But there are either written, spoken and or unspoken consequences that those who do may have to face by doing so. It is their responsibility to face them
These are ridiculous scenarios. you are allowed to say that a woman has The right to choose. Instead of making up stupid shit to justify ending the development of a human life. I think you are wrong but that only my opinion.
@missyann Of course, you’re making excuses for similar situations.
Forcing a woman to give birth because she had sex is no different from a man raping her because she let him kiss her. Did you know that if a woman decides part way through having sex that she wants the man to stop, and he refuses, he can be charged with rape?
@Lila15 Far be it from me to tell you how to spend your online time, but I've come to realize @missyann isn't intelligent enough to be able to change her mind. I sat here yesterday and itemized every logical fallacy she was committing in a comment to me, and she demanded to know what fallacies she had committed. Like, I just showed you. You blind?
@LordShadowfire Perhaps I'm too intelligent. You give me FACTS that disprove me then you will be able to change my mind. Insults definitely don't increase that chance
@missyann I have done so. You choose to twist them, or question them. I provide links to articles, and you dismiss them. In the meantime, you give me nothing to support your positive claims.
