You think liberals are nice? I am looking at Jimmy Kimmel. He has an underwear clad Trump sitting on a John in a jail cell. Zero brains. Totally lib.
70-79, F
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ElwoodBlues · M
@MarthannBann888 claims [quote]Fascists are people who want the government to own and run private business. [/quote] DEAD WRONG. Let's look at the historical record.
[b]Nazi anti-socialism before WWII[/b]
On May 2, 1933, Adolf Hitler’s storm troopers occupied all trade union headquarters across Germany, and union leaders were arrested and put in prison or concentration camps. Many were beaten and tortured. All of the unions’ funds – in other words, the workers’ money – were confiscated. Former union officials were put on blacklists, preventing them from finding work.
The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic..[41] However, after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations, and more were privatized.[42] The Nazi government took the stance that enterprises should be in private hands wherever possible.[43] State ownership was to be avoided unless it was absolutely necessary for rearmament or the war effort, and even in those cases "the Reich often insisted on the inclusion in the contract of an option clause according to which the private firm operating the plant was entitled to purchase it."[43]
In short: Hitler hated unions and loved privately owned industry - the polar opposite of what you said, @MarthannBann888
[sep][sep][sep][center] UPDATE [/center][sep][sep][sep]
@MarthannBann888 says [quote]I don't know what his source is, [/quote]
See [i]Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany[/i]
By GERMÀ BEL
[b]http://www.ub.edu/graap/EHR.pdf[/b]
Here's the abstract:
[quote]Nationalization was particularly important in the early 1930s in Germany. The state took over a large industrial concern, large commercial banks, and other minor firms. In the mid-1930s, the Nazi regime transferred public ownership to the private sector.
In doing so, they went against the mainstream trends in western capitalistic countries, none of which systematically reprivatized firms during the 1930s. Privatization was used as a political tool to enhance support for the government and for the Nazi Party. In addition, growing financial restrictions because of the cost of the rearmament programme provided additional motivations for privatization.[/quote]
[b]Nazi anti-socialism before WWII[/b]
On May 2, 1933, Adolf Hitler’s storm troopers occupied all trade union headquarters across Germany, and union leaders were arrested and put in prison or concentration camps. Many were beaten and tortured. All of the unions’ funds – in other words, the workers’ money – were confiscated. Former union officials were put on blacklists, preventing them from finding work.
The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic..[41] However, after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations, and more were privatized.[42] The Nazi government took the stance that enterprises should be in private hands wherever possible.[43] State ownership was to be avoided unless it was absolutely necessary for rearmament or the war effort, and even in those cases "the Reich often insisted on the inclusion in the contract of an option clause according to which the private firm operating the plant was entitled to purchase it."[43]
In short: Hitler hated unions and loved privately owned industry - the polar opposite of what you said, @MarthannBann888
[sep][sep][sep][center] UPDATE [/center][sep][sep][sep]
@MarthannBann888 says [quote]I don't know what his source is, [/quote]
See [i]Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany[/i]
By GERMÀ BEL
[b]http://www.ub.edu/graap/EHR.pdf[/b]
Here's the abstract:
[quote]Nationalization was particularly important in the early 1930s in Germany. The state took over a large industrial concern, large commercial banks, and other minor firms. In the mid-1930s, the Nazi regime transferred public ownership to the private sector.
In doing so, they went against the mainstream trends in western capitalistic countries, none of which systematically reprivatized firms during the 1930s. Privatization was used as a political tool to enhance support for the government and for the Nazi Party. In addition, growing financial restrictions because of the cost of the rearmament programme provided additional motivations for privatization.[/quote]
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues You got any more bullschiff you want to spew?
MarthannBann888 · 70-79, F
@sunsporter1649 I agree Sun. I don't know what his source is, but it is bad.
ElwoodBlues · M
@MarthannBann888 Go ahead. Show us which businesses Hitler nationalized. Volkswagen was a private company; so was I.G. Farben. So was Vereinigte steelworks. So was Messerschmitt AG. And, as I pointed out, Hitler [i]privatized[/i] Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, and shipping lines. See [b]http://www.ub.edu/graap/EHR.pdf[/b]
Go ahead. Show us the businesses that Hitler nationalized.
Go ahead. Show us the businesses that Hitler nationalized.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@MarthannBann888 This is actually what you need:
http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf
... It shows the big diffrence between NAZI and Italian Fascist decisions on an ecomic level.
The entire idea of Fascism, was to present themselves as a "3th way" between "free market capitalism" and "communism". There was still "private property" and fascists always argued in favor of "fascist corporatism" as an economical system. In catholic circles [i](example: Verdinaso)[/i] they argued for "Solidarism" ... at least a fascist interpretation of "solidarism" which was also a form of corporatism.
Even though this idea is wrong:
[quote]Fascists are people who want the government to own and run private business.[/quote]
In practise though, you aren't completely wrong, because even though fascists only nationalised if it was in the interest of "the nation" , the idea of "private property" only excisted by grace of the state. In other words, if you were working for the national interest you were "free" to own property and keep doing what you do. If the state (nation) demands your compliance too achieve a national goal, and you were reluctant to do so. Then the illusion of having "private property" gets popped in favor of the states goals. You either get nationalised, bullied into compliance or your property will be annexed and granted/sold to someone who will comply with the states dictates. Because it's not communism neither is it free-market capitalism.
The reason why the economic ideas inside fascism are so difficult to explain too people... is because fascism doesn't embrace a fundamental idea on the economy. For them, the economy is just an means to an end. And the end is always too "strengthen" the nation. What ever the definition for "strength" is for he dictator in charge. Unlike liberals that attached themselves to the idea of free-market capitalism OR the communists and anarchists that build their entire idea around combatting the effects of capitalism, Fascism just aborts all of this, exactly because it's a far-right movement that aborts everything in the liberal/enlightenment sphere. The only thing that is important is that it's practical, serves the nation and doesn't create disharmony inside the nation. A nation, that fascists perceive as an organic body, that needs to function with a single mind to ensure it's survival amongst other hostile nations. Or as Mussolini said: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”.
[quote][...] [i][b]Fascism is therefore opposed to all individualistic abstractions based on eighteenth century materialism; and it is opposed to all Jacobinistic utopias and innovations.[/b] It does not believe in the possibility of “happiness” on earth as conceived by the economistic literature of the 18th century, and it therefore rejects the theological notion that at some future time the human family will secure a final settlement of all its difficulties.[/i] [...]
[...] [i]No individuals or groups (political parties, cultural associations, economic unions, social classes) outside the State. Fascism is therefore opposed to Socialism to which unity within the State (which amalgamates classes into a single economic and ethical reality) is unknown, and which sees in history nothing but the class struggle. Fascism is likewise opposed to trade unionism as a class weapon. But when brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State.[/i]
[...] It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter! I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism ….
[...] [i]Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and the economic sphere.[/i] [...]
[...] [i]“The Fascist State is not a night watchman, solicitous only of the personal safety of the citizens; not is it organized exclusively for the purpose of guarantying a certain degree of material prosperity and relatively peaceful conditions of life, a board of directors would do as much. Neither is it exclusively political, divorced from practical realities and holding itself aloof from the multifarious activities of the citizens and the nation. [b]The State, as conceived and realized by Fascism, is a spiritual and ethical entity for securing the political, juridical, and economic organization of the nation, an organization which in its origin and growth is a manifestation of the spirit. The State guarantees the internal and external safety of the country, but it also safeguards and transmits the spirit of the people, elaborated down the ages in its language, its customs, its faith. The State is not only the present; it is also the past and above all the future.[/b] Transcending the individual’s brief spell of life, the State stands for the immanent conscience of the nation. The forms in which it finds expression change, but the need for it remains. [b]The State educates the citizens to civism, makes them aware of their mission, urges them to unity; its justice harmonizes their divergent interests; it transmits to future generations the conquests of the mind in the fields of science, art, law, human solidarity; it leads men up from primitive tribal life to that highest manifestation of human power, imperial rule.[/b] The State hands down to future generations the memory of those who laid down their lives to ensure its safety or to obey its laws; it sets up as examples and records for future ages the names of the captains who enlarged its territory and of the men of genius who have made it famous. Whenever respect for the State declines and the disintegrating and centrifugal tendencies of individuals and groups prevail, nations are headed for decay.”[/i]
- B. Mussolini (& G. Gentile), [i]The Doctrine of Fascism[/i] (1932)[/quote]
[b]SOURCE:[/b] https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf
http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf
... It shows the big diffrence between NAZI and Italian Fascist decisions on an ecomic level.
The entire idea of Fascism, was to present themselves as a "3th way" between "free market capitalism" and "communism". There was still "private property" and fascists always argued in favor of "fascist corporatism" as an economical system. In catholic circles [i](example: Verdinaso)[/i] they argued for "Solidarism" ... at least a fascist interpretation of "solidarism" which was also a form of corporatism.
Even though this idea is wrong:
[quote]Fascists are people who want the government to own and run private business.[/quote]
In practise though, you aren't completely wrong, because even though fascists only nationalised if it was in the interest of "the nation" , the idea of "private property" only excisted by grace of the state. In other words, if you were working for the national interest you were "free" to own property and keep doing what you do. If the state (nation) demands your compliance too achieve a national goal, and you were reluctant to do so. Then the illusion of having "private property" gets popped in favor of the states goals. You either get nationalised, bullied into compliance or your property will be annexed and granted/sold to someone who will comply with the states dictates. Because it's not communism neither is it free-market capitalism.
The reason why the economic ideas inside fascism are so difficult to explain too people... is because fascism doesn't embrace a fundamental idea on the economy. For them, the economy is just an means to an end. And the end is always too "strengthen" the nation. What ever the definition for "strength" is for he dictator in charge. Unlike liberals that attached themselves to the idea of free-market capitalism OR the communists and anarchists that build their entire idea around combatting the effects of capitalism, Fascism just aborts all of this, exactly because it's a far-right movement that aborts everything in the liberal/enlightenment sphere. The only thing that is important is that it's practical, serves the nation and doesn't create disharmony inside the nation. A nation, that fascists perceive as an organic body, that needs to function with a single mind to ensure it's survival amongst other hostile nations. Or as Mussolini said: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”.
[quote][...] [i][b]Fascism is therefore opposed to all individualistic abstractions based on eighteenth century materialism; and it is opposed to all Jacobinistic utopias and innovations.[/b] It does not believe in the possibility of “happiness” on earth as conceived by the economistic literature of the 18th century, and it therefore rejects the theological notion that at some future time the human family will secure a final settlement of all its difficulties.[/i] [...]
[...] [i]No individuals or groups (political parties, cultural associations, economic unions, social classes) outside the State. Fascism is therefore opposed to Socialism to which unity within the State (which amalgamates classes into a single economic and ethical reality) is unknown, and which sees in history nothing but the class struggle. Fascism is likewise opposed to trade unionism as a class weapon. But when brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State.[/i]
[...] It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter! I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism ….
[...] [i]Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and the economic sphere.[/i] [...]
[...] [i]“The Fascist State is not a night watchman, solicitous only of the personal safety of the citizens; not is it organized exclusively for the purpose of guarantying a certain degree of material prosperity and relatively peaceful conditions of life, a board of directors would do as much. Neither is it exclusively political, divorced from practical realities and holding itself aloof from the multifarious activities of the citizens and the nation. [b]The State, as conceived and realized by Fascism, is a spiritual and ethical entity for securing the political, juridical, and economic organization of the nation, an organization which in its origin and growth is a manifestation of the spirit. The State guarantees the internal and external safety of the country, but it also safeguards and transmits the spirit of the people, elaborated down the ages in its language, its customs, its faith. The State is not only the present; it is also the past and above all the future.[/b] Transcending the individual’s brief spell of life, the State stands for the immanent conscience of the nation. The forms in which it finds expression change, but the need for it remains. [b]The State educates the citizens to civism, makes them aware of their mission, urges them to unity; its justice harmonizes their divergent interests; it transmits to future generations the conquests of the mind in the fields of science, art, law, human solidarity; it leads men up from primitive tribal life to that highest manifestation of human power, imperial rule.[/b] The State hands down to future generations the memory of those who laid down their lives to ensure its safety or to obey its laws; it sets up as examples and records for future ages the names of the captains who enlarged its territory and of the men of genius who have made it famous. Whenever respect for the State declines and the disintegrating and centrifugal tendencies of individuals and groups prevail, nations are headed for decay.”[/i]
- B. Mussolini (& G. Gentile), [i]The Doctrine of Fascism[/i] (1932)[/quote]
[b]SOURCE:[/b] https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf