I Question The Age Of Consent

@Dshhh Maybe if we treated sex as an everyday part of life it wouldn't be a problem.

@Dshhh It's not just about maturity. It's about power dynamics and education level regarding the risks associated with sex. Even mature children generally still do as they're told by adults.

@MeisterAndrew Treating sex as part of everyday life for those who want it and have the capacity to make an informed decision about it and apply good judgment to it is absolutely fine. Anything less is not fine, so leave children out of it.

@BanPlastic Well only because as a society we have indoctrinated people into thinking precisely that because we don't treat it as an everyday part of life. We can say the same about many other aspects of life but we don't so it's not really an argument. The definition of "children" is also a varied and arbitrary one.

@MeisterAndrew Yeah... That's actually disgusting. The word 'child' refers to a person who has not fully developed into adulthood. There are biological standards in place to assess this. I wasn't indoctrinated. I am just aware of how power disparities can negate a person's ability to consent.

@BanPlastic And how do you determine who is one? You're clinging to an outdated 20th century idea on a piece of paper. One the world can't even agree upon. It's actually the most unscientific method there is. That's the definition of indoctrination.

@BanPlastic not wrong! power, more than everything, guides all such relations

@MeisterAndrew We'd have to do a brain scan and body assessment to determine when someone has reached adulthood. Technically, even an 18 year old isn't an adult yet because their prefrontal cortex is still developing. I know you'd like anyone who has hit puberty to be considered an adult but that's never going to happen so you can stop that fantasy right there. Puberty is only a transition to adulthood that takes years.

Even though an 18 year old hasn't fully developed mentally into adulthood, they are of an age where they've left school or are almost finished with school. They are not going to perceive someone much older as necessarily being in charge anymore. This is a key factor in determining if they can consent.

@Straylight this guy is creeping me out. What do you think of his comments?

@BanPlastic Actually scientifically puberty is pretty much the onset of adulthood. Technically we never stop developing. It does not mean the person is capable of making the decision and considering all of the intricacies but the age at which they are is most certainly not 18. It may be higher or lower but it doesn't change the fact that your insistence on 18 is an arbitrary one.

Not all 18 year olds are independent. Increasing numbers are still staying at home or going to school as Americans like to call it. And just because someone is younger than 18 does not mean they see everyone older than them as an authority figure. We are programmed to select who our authority figures are. It's also situationally dependent who is seen as an authority figure and who not.

Try as you might but you can't put a scientific figure on age of consent which is something you claim to hold to. Most age of consent laws were put in place during the industrial revolution before scientific advancement in this area so they can't possibly be claimed to be based on science. Their primary purpose was that of a person's ability to take care of themselves in an industrial world and NOT a person's sexual maturity.

@MeisterAndrew 25 is the age when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed. But it's not about when a person reaches adulthood. It's about when a person is unlikely to feel disadvantaged in power. Most 18 year olds would not see a 40 year old as being in charge of them. But a 16 or 17 year old being instructed by a 40 year old would probably do as they're told. That's the point. You keep using exceptions like some 18 year olds still going to school but to establish a general age of consent we actually need to just look at how people generally behave.

I know there are exceptions but we need a general rule to adhere to since we can't conduct a psychological assessment of each individual before having sex with them. Is that what you're proposing? Lol. Or do you just want a free for all situation? We do need an age of consent whether you like it or not. And child psychology has existed before the age of consent laws were amended. But to be fair, most people don't need to talk to a psychologist to observe likely power disparities based on age.

@BanPlastic There is no specific age for anything. And even if someone isn't fully cognitively developed it doesn't mean they are incapable of decisions before then. The prefrontal cortex is only one part of cognitive behaviour and is only implicated in decision making. It cannot be said to even play a primary role. The brain is actually an organ so poorly understood that we don't try to use it to determine a person's behaviour and use other measures instead. The favoured mechanism is actually that of reasonable behaviour.

I am not using exceptions. I am pointing out to you that there isn't one single situation that applies to all. Who someone sees as an authority figure is entirely based on the situation and this is recognised why in some situations the concept of consent doesn't exist or it's simply unprofessional regardless of age. It's not an exception to point out that these situations exist and that we cater for them.

Age of consent laws are largely a product of the industrial era. Psychology is still not an exact science. If anything the more we understand the lower age of consent has gotten. That doesn't bode well for your position that they are and were based on science.

@MeisterAndrew If you genuinely believe there is no specific age for anything, what's stopping you from engaging with a seven year old? There is slight variation between everyone but it's necessary to have general rules in place based on roughly where most people would be at in life. Whether you like it or not, a child will always perceive an adult as someone in authority. You're not a child and if you lack empathy, you won't be able to put yourself in a child's shoes so take it from others who can. The lower an age of consent has gotten, the more child sex trafficking occurs. Look at countries like the Philippines. I probably shouldn't be giving you ideas though. Please, stay away from the Philippines...

@BanPlastic Bringing up general age is not the same as specific age. You also keep referring to children here. A 15 year old is no longer a child but an adolescent. We make this distinction because we recognise that while they may not have the capability to make it in our world on their own they can understand consequences and make some of their own decisions.

The last time I checked teens are also not prone to accept authority figures or people that are supposed to be in a position of authority. So your statement that children will always perceive an adult as being someone with authority is therefor blatantly untrue. It may be applicable to a 5 year old but it is certainly not to a 15 year old in general. It sounds like you are the one resorting to exceptions to justify your case.

You also keep drawing a false correlation. Countries that traditionally have a lower age of consent also have various other conditions and aspects that make them prone to human trafficking. It does not imply that it's because of a low age of consent as there are also countries with a low age of consent without a human trafficking problem.

@MeisterAndrew 'child' legally refers to anyone below the age of majority. Biologically, it refers to a non-adult. An adolescent is undergoing a transition from childhood to adulthood but is still a child. A 15 year old is still a child. You might think that because some teens are rebellious, they don't see adults as authority figures, but in actual fact, they are rebellious BECAUSE they see adults as authority figures.

When I was 15, I may not have always done as I was told and I may have pushed boundaries, but I had a natural fear of adults if they didn't approve of something I was doing. When I was 14, I got told off by a complete stranger and I didn't argue back or anything like that because I perceived him as someone authoritative. It is very natural for a CHILD to see adults this way. Don't take advantage of that.

You also make the mistake of thinking that a 15 year old can make good judgments and is always aware of sexual risks like STI's and injuries. This is absolutely absurd. 15 year olds do not make good judgments. This isn't one of your fantasy worlds. This is reality. Why don't you watch some YouTube videos of 15 year olds talking? Get to know how they think. They are very different from adults. They care more about fitting in than anything else. Lol.

Name me one country with a low age of consent that doesn't have child sex trafficking please. Having a low age of consent allows these child sex trafficking rings to get away with what they do.

@MeisterAndrew Actually, even when I was 17, I still perceived adults as knowing what was best. Although it was at the age of 17 that I began to question things and assert my rights. Someone younger may not even be aware of their rights and what to do if their rights are violated.

@BanPlastic You can't refer to the current legal definition to keep the definition from changing. that's circular reasoning. Biologically someone over the age of puberty is already an adult. We make the distinction between adult and adolescent because we recognise they aren't ready to function independently in our created word but that they are still capable of making some of their own decisions. You are resorting to nonsense rhetoric here which we see none of in actual life.

Well you are the exception then. By your own admission we can't apply exceptions as a general rule. In general teens are rebellious and if they have authority figures it's either begrudgingly or they pick them. They certainly do not perceive all adults as authoritative in general. That IS an aspect we can examine on a case by case basis.

I never said all 15 year olds are capable of good judgement. Just as not all 18 year old are capable of good judgement. Youtube in general isn't a place to find good role models. So if that's your argument you've lost.

You are still confusing correlation with causation. There could be factors unbeknownst to you leading to both a low age of consent and human trafficking. Does not imply that a low age of consent leads to sex trafficking. And you're still fixated on children here, something tells me you are the one with some kind of problem, when it's all human trafficking and not just child sex trafficking.

There are plenty of countries with lower age of consent. We are 16. Some states are 16. A lot of EU countries are under 18. Do you consider Europe to have a huge human trafficking problem in general? Or do you only consider countries with 10 or 12 to have a low age of consent?

@MeisterAndrew But why would I want the definition changed if it's accurate? That's not circular reasoning. It's not accurate just because it's a legal definition. It's accurate for the reasons I already stated which are both biological and based on social positions that lead to power disparities. I don't think you're in a position to comment on a child's life experiences if you think a 13 year old is an adult... A low age of consent does enable child sex trafficking. Maybe not 16 but 12 etc. It's easier to turn a blind eye to child sex trafficking when they're above the age of "consent". Where did I make a reference to YouTube?

@BanPlastic It's accurate according to you! You keep avoiding that all these high ages of consent were decided before medical advancement. Someone past puberty is an adult biologically, that's just fact. In case you don't know puberty is the [i]transition[/i] between child and adulthood. It does not take that long and past puberty someone is no longer a child biologically.

It's very much societal positions that lead to the current laws we have. Why am I not in a position to comment here? I never said a 13 year old will be a responsible adult but it doesn't mean a 15 year old can't be more responsible that an 18 year old. We see it. The fact is we do not know where the age of consent should lie as it's (1) indeterminable and (2) different for every individual. No matter what age you choose you'd be wrong.

You haven't shown that a low age of consent leads to sex trafficking. It's the conditions and historical views that lead to human trafficking in general being commonplace, and not just child sex trafficking as I keep pointing out. A low age of consent usually comes with that as a result. You're incorrectly vilifying the low age of consent as the causal factor.

You did make a reference as to Youtube being a reference to how 15 year olds think and feel.

@MeisterAndrew You don't need medical advancement to have the common sense parenting which you clearly do not have to understand that a child is not authoritatively an equal to an adult. I won't be reading the rest of your comment because it's probably just a reiteration and I can't be bothered going around in circles with you. You're either a troll, a hebephile or just someone who won't get it no matter what. I can't be bothered with you. Take care and keep your hands off kids.

@BanPlastic It's all about medical advancement because without it you're just going on "feels". You've kept on resorting to generalisations about people and situations throughout so cheers.