I Have Legitimate Concerns About Islam And That's Not Bigotry

OWTFWN: they are mixing apples and oranges. Arbitration courts are legal in the US and Britain. They've been around for as long as we've a legal system.

They are designed to provide a quick resolution to what otherwise be, lengthy and costly litigation.

They are NOT mandatory. In my state, when a divorce decree is pronounced, if often has a clause directing divorcees to Arbitrators to settle their future disputes.

Of course, to bigots, who get their information from hate sites, it's all about Shariaa. In the US, you will find Jewish, Christian and Muslim, arbitration councils. What the laws guarantee though, is non discriminatory conduct by these arbitration councils.

Yes, we should be concerned about extremism.

In the US, 23 women were killed last year, in what is called honor killings, committed mostly by Muslims.

During that same year, and also in the US, 1,600 women, were killed by their husbands, boyfriends, former husbands, former boyfriends, etc. in crimes of passion.

Yes, indeed, we should be well aware of extremism.

See the Pope links I sent in the previous thread.

Northwest@ I did say as you mentioned in your reply that abusers will use their religion to justify their actions and that includes all religions where wife beating was approved by their "holy books".I said that those who are considered "good " Muslims follow the words of Mohamed to the letter is TRUE and that they do not consider those Muslims who do not as "good" Muslims is also TRUE. I do not get my information from random hate groups,this is what YOU say! My information is very valid but to an apologist like you it is interpreted as flawed and biased against Islam.That young woman should do her own research and inform herself and decide for herself on husbands who beat their wives in the Muslim religion.Isn't it strange that you have so far discredited everything I have put forward regarding the Muslim ideology that did not go along with your apologist interpretation of Islam,there are highly respected people who DO NOT regard Islam and its practices as "the religion of peace" because so far everything they have done in the world and are still doing in the name of Allah and Mohamed SCREAMS the opposite,their ideology is still stuck in the 7th century and they are trying to replace our civilization with it overtly and covertly. Stop trying to obfuscate the issue,this is what you have been doing all along. Recently in France a Muslim stabbed a woman and her two daughters at a summer resort because they were not decently covered,STABBED! He tried to violently impose HIS religious beliefs on three women he did not know at all! And those attacks on innocent people keep happening and YES whatever you say the Orlando Shooter killed all those people in the name of Islam,,he had planned it.The teenager who slit the throat of that 86 years old priest was not a young man who had "lost his way" as previously reported,he was known to the police as a terrorist who tried to join ISIS and was being monitored with an ankle device but that did not stop him murdering that poor man,he should have been locked up! Why wasn't he locked up?? I see things for what they are,you intellectualize and always try you best to obfuscate the issue and plainly discredit what I put forward because you are an apologist for Islam.You even make me say what I do not say whenever it suits you. I hope people who read this forum will see what an apologist you are and some already have. I think we will have to agree to disagree on many things regarding Islam and its violent practices and the many atrocities being committed in Mohamed's name.YOU are the one who is misinformed for the most or is it your agenda? I will not be answering any more of what you posits because you simply refuse to see the violence of that ideology and try to expose those who do as bigots.Well you too are a bigot!

@berangere: If you find a fault with my reasoning, then point to it. I am more than capable of accepting when I post something that's not correct.

I've been pointing out the problems with the videos you present. Most of what you posted, is not unique to Islam, or distorted.

A typical example, is when you posted a story about how London's Mayor, started an Islamic advertising campaign, when in fact, the campaign was planned, months before he was even elected.

Or when you claimed, based on a tabloid story, that the Mayor of London, banned ads featuring bikini-clad women, when in fact, he was responding to popular demand, to stop a diet-pills company, that was body shaming women.

Do you get how the conclusion of these stories you posted, are not fact, but propaganda?

There is no political correctness in what I'm posting. Like most people, I am interested in making the world a better place. Like most people, I recoil, when faced with something different, but I've trained myself to think, before reacting, and to point out unfairness, and baseless prejudice.

I have Muslims all around me. They were my colleagues at the world's largest software company. They were leaders in making the software you're currently using to connect to the Internet. Their kids played soccer with my kids. They served our country in the armed forces. Some, are practicing Muslims, but none of them are interested in implementing the Sharia laws.

I don't deny that there are Muslim Ghettos in Europe, but I have more than a couple of firing neurons in my head, and I understand that it's mostly about socio-economics, not religion, as the same thing applies to our own Ghettos/public housing projects in the USA.

If we're so concerned about Muslims women, then why the hell are we still buying oil from Saudi Arabia? Why aren't we embracing the refugees who want to live free? Europe has issues, and I don't agree with the way they're handling refugees, but in the US, it takes 18-24 months of screening, and most of the refugees who arrive, are women and children.

@Betsngere: you are missing the point. Your propaganda videos, present this as if only Muslims commit crimes of passion.

The fact, is, that controlling abusive people, commit these crimes. Any population group, or religion, is going to have a percentage of deranged individuals. It's not the religion, it's the individual. If it really was the religion, logic dictates that you would have thousands of honor killings.

BTW, in the Levant, a Christian is as likely to commit an honor killing, as a Muslim.

@berangere says "that does not excuse the violence towards women fomented by the Muslim ideology and the "honor killings" taking place in the name of Islam."

Who's trying to excuse the violence? You keep saying that honor killings are justified by Islam. I keep asking for a reference. How about providing one. The so called honor killings, are punishable by death in Muslim countries, and they are cultural, not religious.

@beranagere: Not really. The bit about the 10 year old not obeying, is lifted from the OT, where death is recommended to restore a family's honor, if a kid disobeys. As for women, the Qur'an is not as explicit as the OT, where burning the adulteress, is what's required to restore honor.

Crimes of passion, unfortunately, are part of life, but they are punishable by death in most Islamic countries. In the handful of countries, where they apply criminal Sharia, adultery is punishable by death, after the 4th offense, if the accused does not repent. This applies to both men and women.

In places, where they have strong tribes, it's culture, rather than religion that drives it, despite strong governments efforts to put an end to it. For instance, in Jordan, and as rare is it might be, the offender is just as likely to be Christian as Muslim. Yes, they have Christians in Jordan.

Thank younberangerer. Thank you Northwesr!!

Dear berangerer!! Please note before anything translation of Quran is not allowed and they call it Tafsir, which means interpretation and not translation. Therefore anybody can interpret Quran based on their understanding. However, I can't and won't deny what has brought into my attention by you and Northwest about that verse (alnesa Surat). Northwest has already explained that verse to you, and he knows Quran better than I do. The thing is dear berangerer that I am here to tell you the way you are bringing this forward is bigotry (since you have asked) and that you have not answered my question yet...if you are not attacking Muslim men, what is this??

Extremists are mentioned as the main followers but also "moderate" Muslims in America and England who carry out "honor" killings, facilitate "shariah banking" and have shariah court already established in America,England,France.


I am not here to defend Islam, I am here to tell you that this is bigotry, and unfortunately you are denying it.

You have not still answered my question with regards to FBI report that I sent you. I still like to know how many of those 2 million women who are beaten up every year in America (FBI report) are beaten up by their Muslim husbands?? How many of those 1500 women killed in America by their husbands, boyfriends, partners, are killed by their Muslim husbands.I hate to say this but at least Islam has mentioned "don't beat your women harshly and don't wound them" (based on your own information provided)

Sorry to say that Your question (rather call it statement) is completely different from what you are claiming to be saying in here:

Soossie@ I hope this will answer your question.I am not saying that ALL Muslim men beat their wives but that it is permitted for them to do so by their religion.

One more thing, you are asking me to do my own research...lady my job includes lots and lots of research and I know how to do research...for your information, research includes thesis and antithesis related to a subject. it includes every aspects of a subject, where bigotry does its own research based on their beliefs and against everything that denys that belief. As Northwest has mentioned your references are prepared and provided by hate groups. Are we here to find out??

Finally!! The video that you have provided in your question/statement mentions it well that Sharia is not a religion, it is a politic based on a religion, and as a banker, I'd like to mention that all huge international banks practice Islamic banking as part of their banking business.

@berangere: I am discrediting the guy? Really? I am reminding you that I've already covered this topic, specifically, the chapter he's discussing, chapter #4, Surat al Nisa, or the Chapter on women. I reminded you, that he's not telling me anything I don't already know, or something that the entire world does not know.

I said that he's a moron, because it took him several years, to get to chapter 4 of the Qur'an!

As to your statement, accusing me of being an apologist, it seems as if anyone who argues the truth, not sensationalism, is an apologist. This is the argument, of those who have no solid logical ground to stand on.

Yes, I am an atheist, and it seems to me, as if the guy on that last video you posted, is an atheist as well. He, and rightfully so, points to the fact that all religions, derived from the OT, are violent, via their holy books. Yet, the "followers", as in those who are born into these religions, are civilized people.

You arguing against yourself, yet, you just don't realize it.

Going by the numbers, more "Christians" than "Muslims", behave like it's OT time, and by that I mean, Africa, South America, and Eastern Europe.

Conversely speaking, the majority of Muslims, live and let live.

It's time for you to accept, that if you examine the Holy books, then we're all in trouble, but if you look at people, then the majority simply wants to live and let live.

Being an atheist, does not make me a bigot or a xenophobe.

I suggest you re-watch that video you just posted.

Northwest@ Yes wives are being beaten all over the world,by husbands of many religions or no religion but that does not excuse the violence towards women fomented by the Muslim ideology and the "honor killings" taking place in the name of Islam.We are talking about Islam,an ideology which has become a very serious threat to our western way of life mostly because people are afraid to speak up against it,for fear of being called: BIGOT,ISLAMOPHOBE,( not a phobia but a very rational fear) RACIST (Islam is an ideology and NOT a race) but nevertheless it intimidates people and shuts down debates! NO ONE has the right to criticize Islam! Or the warlord Mohamed,whatever he did!


[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCq2HgNk7Zs]

That's not a good argument... Christianity doesn't allow beating of women at all. Now if it happens, well that's a sinful act, and certainly not christian. However, only one religion has its leaders actually justify it (and it's scripture).

@Soossie: She is referring to Surat Al-Nis'a (سورت النساء) verse 34, specifically, although she does not specifically state it, because she gets her information from random hate groups videos and web sites.

Surah 4, verse 34, says: Men are entitled to be masters over women, as they are favored by God, and because women are financially dependent on men. Righteous women are obedient and when their husbands are absent, they will remain faithful and respectful. As to women who are arrogant and disobedient, then men should first discuss it with them, and if the behavior persists, then (in that order) deny them sex, and beat them, until they become obedient, then the beatings and denial of sex will stop.

The translation is mine, as every English translation I've seen, makes no sense (they try to apply 7th Century Arabic to 20th Century Arabic, and then translate to English).

So, Berangere, implies that a Muslim who is not a wife-beater, must not be a true Muslim, and a Muslim who beats his wife, is a true Muslim.

Using that same logic, my Mom, was not a good Jew, because she did not toss in the fire, when I did not do my chores, and my brother will burn in hell, because I planted different seeds, in adjacent rows, in his garden, and he did not strike me dead on the spot. Well, technically, my mom was sort of an atheist, so there's that...

So, yes, there is a double standard here. I think that religion has absolutely nothing to do with domestic abuse. In ass-backward Christian communities in the US, wife beating is pretty common, and they all use passages from the Old Testament to justify it, because mean is head of the household and family, and women and children must obey, and a beating is a legitimate remedy for disobedience, as prescribed in the Old Testament.

In reality, they're just abusers, who cling to flimsy excuses.

Take Donald Trump for example. He alluded that the Muslim father, who lost his son, a US Army Captain, in action in Iraq, was preventing his wife from speaking. In reality, she is a mother, who was too upset, when she saw her son's pictures. At the same time, there are a few interviews with Trump, with his wife behind or next to him, where he does not allow her to say one word.

Yes... I know the statistics... they're not accurate, not even the FBI report. Keep in mind they lean toward accepting even unsubstantiated reports. Like I said, it's less. Thank you.

@berangere: I don't see what we have to agree to disagree on.

I could say that all those hours, I spent in Rodin's garden are the most memorable times of my life, and you could say that I wasted my time, and should have spent that time, instead, at the Louvres. In that case, we can agree to disagree.

I could say that the moon does not exist, and you will say that it does. There is no possibility for an "agree to disagree" case here.

The Mayor of London was NOT in office when the ad campaign was designed and approved. In fact, it was Boris Johnson, who was in office, the conservative, man-child, similar to Trump, who was in office.

There is no case for an "agree to disagree" here.

The extremists that we primarily need to be concerned with, are those terrorizing Muslims mostly, in Iraq and Syria. We need to decisively defeat them, as an exterminate them. There is no other possibility, as these people are not prone to logic.

There will be repercussions in the West, from their supporters, so we need to brace ourselves, and those who will commit these crimes, are already in the West. Most are going to use Islam as an excuse. Case in point: the Orlando psychopath and the Nice psychopath.

There is no need though, to punish the rest of the Muslims world for this.

@soossie: I've brought it up to Beranger's attention, multiple times, but she cannot really read, or comprehend things that do not agree with her sanctioned view of the world (and she calls me a bigot for disagreeing with her).

In the Middle East, whenever there's a nation, with mixed Muslim/Christian population, and within the same socio-economic circles, an honor killing, is just as likely to be committed by a Muslim, as it is by a Christian.

That's a little bit too much for their brains to process, because it proves that culture, and socio-economics, rather the religious, control what people do.

When a husband, in the USA, kills his wife, for cheating on him, or for suspecting her of cheating, then it's a statistic, when it's a Muslim doing the same thing, it's an honor killing.

They also claim that Muslims, in general, do not protest the actions of extremists, like ISIS, ignoring that an coalition of the GCCC countries, and Jordan, is conducting an air campaign against ISIS, and that the Iraqi army is marching against ISIS in Iraq, and that in Syria, Hezballah has lost more than 1,000 fighters in its war against the Nusra group (now Jund al Sham), and ISIL.

@berangere says:
[quote]Yes a quick resolution like putting abusive Muslims husbands in "anger management" groups which will do nothing to curb their violence because it is religiously, ideologically encouraged and sanctioned by the Koran.Then they go home and continue to beat their wives![/quote]

In the USA, about 75,000 women, on daily basis, seek refuge in shelters and 25,000 hotline domestic abuse calls are placed, also on daily basis.

These are not Muslim women. They're plain ole Christian women, mostly lower income.

Northwest@ No one want to punish anyone least of all those who are innocent,all I am saying is that as you say there are extremist sympathizers in the west and those people not only commit violence against the rest of us including the peaceful Muslims who do not adhere to the teachings of the Koran and are by many Muslims considered not "true Muslims",but also those sympathizers are working behind the scene, like the" Muslim brotherhood" and certain apologists to advance the tenets of Islam in the west by implementing sharia law,starting with finance and divorce courts and gradually introducing the whole tenet and this by acquiring positions of power just like our friend the mayor of London.You choose not to believe this but I do and many people believe it too.This is how they operate.I could put another video about Al Taqiyya,but I will not.I too have more than two neurons to rub together,I have been on this planet 72 years,I was not born yesterday.My job which was nursing,(general and psychiatric) and midwifery allowed me to meet people of all persuasions,I also worked years in emergency medicine.Lets say that I am not naive and am not in the habit of fooling myself.

@fredmohar: Thank you for the Guardian link. You should learn how to read English though. It says that 87% of British Muslims, feel a sense of belonging to Britain. That is higher that the general population, which stands at 81%.

BTW, the French Amnesty International report you posted, gives Tunisia thumbs up, on most everything, with the exception of:

Abortion rights: Abortion was legal in Tunisia, 2 years before it became legal in France, and before it became legal in the US. The complaint, is that some services try to intimidate women who seek an abortion. The same thing happens in the US. Some people try to impose their morals on others, but the law remains the law. In fact, Abortion, for women who have 5 kids, has been legal in Tunisia, since 1965.

Domestic violence: the rate there, according to Amnesty, seems to be fairly similar to that in the USA.

So, they ended up with a maybe, but progress was made. I would have given it a passing grade.

As to Lebanon, and regardless of what Hezballah is doing, the question is: do women enjoy protection under the law, and the answer is absolutely. And, if you're not aware of it, Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim, but the Muslims of Lebanon, protect, with their lives, the constitution, which states that the President will always be Catholic, and the same for the commander of the armed forces, as well as Intelligence Services, and that the Governor of the Bank of Lebanon, is Christian. Yes, they have a number of political parties, but their disagreements are no different from those in European countries, or the US. Don't pretend to be an expert on things you don't understand. In fact, during a visit to Lebanon, a few years back, we ended up at a beach with a group of Americans. The normal thing, is to go topless. We stood out, because our party had clothes on. We also stood out, because a woman in our party, complained to management, because two female guests were kissing and making out publicly.

@berangere:

From Merriam-Webster - Definition of bigot: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

Every single video you posted, came from a hate web site. They are posted without a context, and I am not trying to spread hate against a religious group.

You're posting to a group, that claims it is not bigoted, but does have issues with Islam.

Every time you claim that I am defending terrorism, or that I am an apologist for terrorism, you lie. One more time, you lie.

What would you call a person, who claims she does not have problems with moderate Muslims, who want to live and let live, BUT, insists that the Mayor of London, a man who was elected by a non-Muslim majority, someone who is secular, with a wife who does not wear a hijab, daughters who look just like any British teenager, must be lying to infiltrate British society, as a precursor to turning it into a Shariaa country, and a Muslim country?

You're like Donald Trump. Someone who tries to discredit a hero, by trying to deflect from the heroism and sacrifice of an American hero, by alluding that his mother, did not have the freedom to speak, because she's Muslim.

The fact is, that I am not defending a religion, I am exposing hypocrisy. 1,600 women in the US, are killed by their significant others, and you call it abuse, despite the fact that the majority of the murderers are Christian, whose religion is based on holy books, that prescribe murder, burning, and stoning of those who disobey or commit adultery. But you blame religion for the same type murder, if committed by a Muslim.

It is up to you, whether you want to respond. You're a free woman, unlike some of the women, trying to flee oppressive Islamic regimes, or abusive "Christian" husbands.

@Northwest: Yes, they feel a strong sense to belonging to Britain. Because they can live their life in freedom and spread their Muslimist ideas. Europe lets them do whatever they want to do.

But the title of the article is: "Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds."

Later on: "Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole."

Who doesn't understand English? You should stop being partonising when you are obviously wrong.

I never said that in all Muslim countries all forms of abuse and terror exists. There some better ones, but even they are far from our European norms (even if you saw kissing women in Lebanon). They've already started to destroy Europe and to transform it into a third world battlefield.

If life is so nice in these countries why do millions want to come to Europe?

berangere: I agree, I'm far from being xenophobic, I actually like multiculturalism, I have no problem with people from any background, skin colour or religion. I even don't have any problem with Islam as a religion, but it is an ideology at the same time! And a very dangerous one, similar to fascism or communism. In fact Islamism is xenophobic, they chase minorities whenever they get the majority or power!

I have heard Muslims over and over again label their countries as Muslim nations, (and be offended if one says otherwise), so yes... there are Muslim nations. I did not call "Muslim" one nation, which is what you said.

I know enough about how these statistics are gathered, and the criteria, to safely say they are exaggerated for the reasons I provided you. You have no basis other than what you read to say otherwise.

I don't support any hate videos, and I have no idea what you are referring to.

Finally, I'm not judging any majority by the acts of a minority. But I have enough understanding of history, enough knowledge of current events, and enough personal experience to know that the majority of Muslims do not do enough, or even criticize what extremists do. If you do, that's to your credit, but Muslims as a group do not. That's a simple, easily observable fact, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.

Northwest@ First of all we will have to agree to disagree about the mayor of London,lets say no more about it now.Yes I agree that there are Muslims who will not have a bar about fundamental Islam and what is being done in its name all over the world,but they are not the ones whom we have to worry about,the one whom we have to worry about are very determined in their aim to establish Islam as the main religion world wide and shariah law in all its horror and they are more numerous than we want to believe.I don't see moderate Muslims manifesting in the street holding placards saying "not in our name" but there are plenty of manifestations mostly in Europe and England led by extremists holding placards saying "behead the infidels",plenty as to compare with manifestations saying "not in our name"why? because people are afraid! They are afraid that their throats will be cut!

@DJC45 thinks that women are treated much worse in Muslim nations. That would be true, if the world is composed of the Middle East, and Western Europe.

If you add India to his world, then the picture instantly changes.

If you add the rest of our continent, starting directly South of us, then you find that Mexico and Brazil, have the highest rates of violence against women, and where nearly 150,000 women are raped per year.

Aren't you a Trump fan?

What does this prove about the relationship between religion and violence against women? Nothing. What does that say about the relationship between socio-economics and violence against women? everything.

But, the nations South of us are "Christian", so they don't count, and well, India is far away, and the West has not invaded it in a while.

@berangere: Did I ever claim that honor killings DO NOT occur in Muslim countries? I acknowledged that immediately.

The point you keep glossing over, is that honor killings, under a different name, but under the same set of circumstances, occur at a much higher rate in the US.

Even in the Middle East, Christians also commit honor killings.

You keep on insisting that it's justified by the Qur'an, and it's not. Every video you posted, tries to find some sort of justification, and it all comes back to the Boy and the Whale, something that's lifted from the Old Testament.

One set of killings, does not justify another, but if we're concerned about honor killings, also knows as, murdering women just because they want to live their lives, on their own terms, then let's acknowledge it's a universal problem and deal with it that way.

Northwest@ Yes a quick resolution like putting abusive Muslims husbands in "anger management" groups which will do nothing to curb their violence because it is religiously, ideologically encouraged and sanctioned by the Koran.Then they go home and continue to beat their wives!

I AM NO ATTACKING MUSLIM MEN! I am merely stating that their religion sanction violence against women and some are taking great advantage of it,because violence against women is ENDEMIC in the Muslim "faith" Please instruct yourself! And yes Islam said "don't beat your women harshly" but do they? And because other men that are not Muslims beat their wives in great number does not in the least subtracts to the violence Muslim women suffer at the hands of their husbands.The only difference is that those American men do not have a religion they can use as an excuse. It is the IDEOLOGY that I am against not the MEN because they are MUSLIM.This is what apologists fail to understand!

@Northwest: I think you live in your imaginary world! Turkey working toward EU membership! haha By arresting tens of thousands based on political motives, by re-introducing death penalty to execute political opponents? Turkey will never join the EU (at least not in the next 80 years). France and Germany will never agree. Or Greece. Only the UK wanted them to join, but they will leave. Letting 80 million Muslims in the EU would mean the end of Europe.

Lebanon: one of the leading forces of the coutry is a terrorist organisation, thanks, I don't want to import that to Europe. The civil war is officially over but peace among ethnic groups is far away. Muslims' rate in the population is growing, I'd bet that when they get into a huge majority, they will chase Christians from the country.

Tunisia: there are ristrictions on women

http://www.amnesty.fr/Nos-campagnes/Mon-corps-mes-droits/Actualites/La-Tunisie-est-elle-le-modele-pour-les-droits-des-femmes-qu-elle-pretend-etre-17335

So, there is no country with Muslim majority where you can enjoy the same freedom as in Europe or in the USA. And I don't want Europe to become one of them. Not even the best one, Tunisia or any former Soviet Republic. The best Muslim majority country is far worst than the worst EU member.

Northwest @ I believe people do use religion to kill because they have been so indoctrinated they are no longer in their right mind,they truly believe they are doing the right thing according to their religion,it is not just an excuse to indulge in criminal activity under the clock of religion,religion can destroy our humanity,it can literally poison our mind and totally distort reality,they put their religious beliefs before anything else and follow them blindly,never questioning any of them.This is a kind of delusion and a very dangerous one. (Sometimes I wonder if you are playing devil's advocate regarding Islam,just a feeling)

@berangere says

[quote]Yes women are also killed by non Muslims who do not want their wives or girlfriend to have a life of their own,those are narcissists,sociopaths with a need to control and own a person,but Islam's "honor killings" are based on their culture INSPIRED by their RELIGION. If it is not written right out in the Koran and the Hadith it is implied and so give them leave to apply it,if they did not follow Islam to the letter and become delusional in the process there would be NO "honor" killings![/quote]

You're still not getting the point. Out of the 1,600 who killed women in the US, last year, how many identify as, or are born as Christian and Jewish? If you follow the national trends, then about 1,000 of them are. If I follow your logic, and because honor killings ARE part of the Old Testament, then I would have to conclude that 1,000 women were killed, because Christians and Jews, followed the instructions of the Old Testament. Does this sound fair to Christianity and Judaism?

PS: you seem to be also saying, that when a sociopath kills a woman, and he happens to be a Christian or Jew, then he did it, because he's a sociopath. But, when a sociopath, kills a woman, and he happens to be Muslim, then he did it because he's a Muslim. Hmmm...

@fredmohar: Yes, Turkey. You may not like Erdogan, but the country is working toward EU membership, with all that it entails.

You probably are not aware of it, but the war in Lebanon ended in 1990, and even before and during the war, freedom of expression is absolute in Lebanon. Gay marriage is not legal, but gay marriage is not legal everywhere you have free speech. There are no restrictions on women, whatsoever.

The same goes for Tunisia.

As to the former Soviet Republics, there is no Sharia law, and there are no restrictions on women. Freedom of speech issues, have nothing to do with Islam there.

Anything else you want to be wrong about? Oh, yeah, the Supreme Court. The Court held in a 5–4 decision that the fundamental right to marry is guaranteed to same-sex couples by both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. So. yes, this was about gay marriage being OK.

Oh, right, the thing about gays being stoned in Lebanon, Turkey, Tunisia? Yeah, you're wrong about that as well.

PS: Yes, Hezballah is in Lebanon, but Hezballah does not place any restrictions in its areas of influence on women's rights, or what women can wear, or freedom of speech.

Soossie@ You say that the Quran is not allowed to be translated but merely interpreted.So an Imam like the one in the video I shared further down will be well qualified to interpret it.Other Imam also said the Quran instructs the men to use force as a last resort,but they are allowed to use force. Mohamed himself beat his favorite wife on the chest because she left the house without him.I am not attacking Muslim men,I am denouncing an ideology which encourages violence against women.You say you experienced an abusive marriage but that your husband did not strictly follow the Muslim religion,I too experienced an abusive marriage to a narcissist,he was English and not religious,I went to see a solicitor to discuss divorce and he asked me to describe the abuses I was being subjected to,I did and then he said "well,are you married to a Muslim then?.Now I too have known Muslim men who were really lovely,but they happen not to have fervently followed the Muslim religion to the letter and I also admit that even among those who do,some of them would not beat their wives,but their "scripture" give them leave to do so if they so wish,even if those verses cannot be translated but merely interpreted.Now I hope I have answered you question!

@berangere: Do you really think that people who decide to kill, do it, because they think religion inspires them to do it, or because they're looking for something to justify their murderous, controlling behavior?

And, if you think you're right, how come you don't run into people killing their children for not taking the garbage out when asked? My Jewish mom, never (not once), decapitated me, for not doing my chores, before going to bed.

1,600 people did not need any justification to kill their significant other, do you think the 23 that used religious justification, are any different?

@berangere: re-read my response, a couple of posts ago. This is what they use to justify stoning and killing of adulterers in Sharia laws. Not honor killings.

Northwest@ you are already discrediting the man who left Islam for very good reasons and I am very surprised an atheist like you appears to be such an apologist for Islam and will readily discredit those who speak against it, like you called that man a moron,he does not strike me as a moron at all! Soossie@ again I am not a bigot and I did tell you that not all Muslims beat their wives,but if you saw the video which I have posted an Islamic preacher actually says it is permissible for a man to beat his wife according to the Koran, if she does not submit to him .All I am saying is that it is actually written in the Koran,if you saw the article I sent this should have explained it to you.I am not attacking Muslim men I am merely denouncing those who use the Koran as a good excuse to beat their wives and have this behavior legitimized by said Koran.It looks like you have decided that I am a bigot. I would please ask you to inform yourself, you will discover things that will greatly disturb you and they are NOT hate mongering against Islam but the truth. I will post one more video as to why people leave Islam,no doubt that young man will also be called a moron by Northwest.

[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsjJvehvV00]

Northwest@ Yes women are also killed by non Muslims who do not want their wives or girlfriend to have a life of their own,those are narcissists,sociopaths with a need to control and own a person,but Islam's "honor killings" are based on their culture INSPIRED by their RELIGION. If it is not written right out in the Koran and the Hadith it is implied and so give them leave to apply it,if they did not follow Islam to the letter and become delusional in the process there would be NO "honor" killings!

And also the second link you provided is a hate group as it says:

"TROP is a non-partisan, fact-based site which examines the ideological threat that Islam poses to human dignity and freedom."

It says that the minority of Muslims being against terrorism is 1% I.e. 1500000 people. That actually made me laugh out loud. Lolol

Lady...if that is not a hate group, then what is?? To me it seems that you don't even read your own sources of information completely, let alone mine.

Thank you.

Soosie@ I am talking about a religion that oppresses women and encourages men to abuse their wives as can be read in the Koran.I believe Muslim men who do not strictly follow those verses in the Koran would not be encouraged to beat their wives,those men who are naturally abusive and would abuse their wives or girlfriends would if they were Muslims certainly use those verses to legitimize their actions.There are verses in the Koran that says it is OK for a man to beat his wife if she does not obey him.

Northwest@. Yes I agree many women are killed by deranged partners every years all over the world,the controllers, the insanely jealous,the vindictive, but "honor killings" are purely motivated by religious beliefs followed blindly by adherent of the Muslim "faith". And saying that many women are murdered by non Muslims does in no way excuse nor diminishes the horror of honor killings.We certainly do not want to see them increase in western countries.

@berangere: this last video you posted, seriously? Who is this guy? He sounds like someone with a chip on his shoulder, and he has no clue. He's pointing to some terms in Surah 18, but in fact, they do not exist in it. For instance, al Khid'r. It is NOT in the original Arabic. I just read it, one more time, in Arabic, and it is not there.

This guy's presents a child-like argument, focusing on sarcasm, but he's not witty enough to be sarcastic, but he does succeeds in showing his ignorance. BTW, the reason why some English translations, used the term fish, instead of whale, is because modern Arabic whale, is not the same as ancient Arabic whale. It's all about the context. In the time of Muhamad (and Jonah before him), the word 'Hout', which today translates into whale, meant large fish.

One more time, and I've said multiple times already, this is the Qur'an version, of the similar text from the Old Testament.

Honor killing is outlawed by all Muslim countries, and is punishable by up to death.

@berangere says

[quote]honor killings are encouraged by the Muslim religion.[/quote]

Really? How about a reference?

Soossie@ Now you continue to misconstrue me just as Northwest does,I do not generalize that ALL Muslim men are violent,because some aren't, I am deploring Islamic IDEOLOGY as dictated by the Q'oran.IDEOLOGY,please look up that word and what it means. Of course I do not like being called a bigot because I an NOT ONE and if I reject and condemn a very brutal and primitive IDEOLOGY that does not make me into one and mostly when that IDEOLOGY threatens us all.

Nortwest@ that might answer your question regarding "does Islam encourages honor killing"



https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQhYTo_6HOAhUHoZQKHZc9CbQQFgg4MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answering-islam.org%2Fauthors%2Foskar%2Fhonor_killings.html&usg=AFQjCNFB84QvJ0uUotQL_UmEYbVsXrCf6w&sig2=uiPjvjiDs6SQwHkKGMwsFQ

DJC!! Yes, you did say Muslim Nations. There are no Muslim nations. Nations belong to countries and not religion. In nations you can find Muslims, as well as Christians, Jews, atheists,....

In my opinion a bigot person is intolerant towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

I am giving you facts with statistics, provided by your own federal police, yet you refuse to accept them and call the inaccurate, where all the videos prepared by hate groups are acceptable to you.

I am not defending Islam...I am debating you against generalizing and stereotyping.

Please do not judge majority by the act of minority. The question (statement) here obviously is on Sharia, by which Muslim men including the moderate ones are attacked by the asker. She mentions bigotry in her question, but when reasons are provided to prove that this is bigotry, she gets upset about the word.

Northwest knows much more than I do about Islam and Quran and he is doing his own logical argument, where I am arguing the asker against her generalization of Muslims.

Thank you

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjO1rfYgaTOAhWEJpQKHTQdCJQQFgg1MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Feurope%2Fwomen-told-you-have-dishonoured-your-family-please-kill-yourself-1655373.html&usg=AFQjCNEGcOvk9wL_hgeHYdQJabkKqtkcZw&sig2=hVSxqey66WniOJyj1GHhHA

Northwest!!

I do Respect your argument with DJC. But he believes that the statistics provided are not accurate and he claims he know how those statistics are prepared and provided. As part of my job, which is market research, I can tell you that everything in this World is based on the statistics provided by each government. Even IMF provides report based on the statistics provided by each government.

Berangers!!

I am an Iranian Muslim woman, who was married to an abusive husband (not religious...one of the most intellectual artists) for 14 years. What you say, to me is bigotry because abusive husbands, and wives live everywhere. There are lots and lots of kind and loving muslim husbands also living everywhere. I can't understand the basis of your argument and the logic into it. Thanks.

@berangere said: "Soossie,I called no one bigot except may be Northwest who has proven himself to being such a rabid Islam apologist although he calls himself an atheist,it cuts both ways!"

Yes, Berangere, you called me a bigot, because you could not, once, find inaccuracies, in what I post, and I am not programmed to follow the heard, or get on the hate train.