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ArishMell · 70-79, M
@zonavar68 Whatever that cliche "Weaponised" means, the whole idea that the world's governments would or even could conspire so would be laughable if the subject was not so serious.
They find it hard enough to organise constructive mutual arrangements in public to bolster peaceful trading, scientific and cultural exchanges even between friends.
So the idea that all nations, friends and foes alike, could "conspire" to "plan" to create, launch and maintain a pandemic that would hurt all their own populations and economies as well as those of others - and to maintain the gigantic lies and secrecy necessary for any such pan-national conspiracy - is just utterly ridiculous. That's even before the purely humanitarian questions, but the conspiracy-fantasists ignore those.
The accusation is absurd by simple logic. It would be interesting to know who starts such accusations and why, beyond mere egotism.
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I do not say all governments handled the pandemic well, but that's a different matter. Most countries acted in broadly similar ways, to a new disease that can have a range of effects still not fully understood; they made mistakes, understandably. They could hardly have let it rip as the conspiracy-fantasists and anti-vaccination campaigners - all lacking even basic humanity - seem to want.
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SARS-Covid_19 was not the world's first pandemic, let alone epidemic. Nor the first originating in Man's treatment of other animals: think of Ebola, and the 1918 Influenza pandemic. It will not be the last. Hopefully the world's governments will have learnt enough to limit the next even if they can't stop such diseases. Well, how can you stop a new disease until it appears? You can't because you don't know it exists until then. All you can do is try to limit the risk of that hazard by learning the causes and avoiding them in future.
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I ridiculed the word "pre-planned" because, like the words "pre-order" and "pre-book", it [i]is[/i] ridiculous. You cannot plan, order or book anything before you do indeed plan, book or order it ; unless you are Dr. Who, perhaps. It shows only the level of the conspiracy-fantasy.
They find it hard enough to organise constructive mutual arrangements in public to bolster peaceful trading, scientific and cultural exchanges even between friends.
So the idea that all nations, friends and foes alike, could "conspire" to "plan" to create, launch and maintain a pandemic that would hurt all their own populations and economies as well as those of others - and to maintain the gigantic lies and secrecy necessary for any such pan-national conspiracy - is just utterly ridiculous. That's even before the purely humanitarian questions, but the conspiracy-fantasists ignore those.
The accusation is absurd by simple logic. It would be interesting to know who starts such accusations and why, beyond mere egotism.
.
I do not say all governments handled the pandemic well, but that's a different matter. Most countries acted in broadly similar ways, to a new disease that can have a range of effects still not fully understood; they made mistakes, understandably. They could hardly have let it rip as the conspiracy-fantasists and anti-vaccination campaigners - all lacking even basic humanity - seem to want.
.
SARS-Covid_19 was not the world's first pandemic, let alone epidemic. Nor the first originating in Man's treatment of other animals: think of Ebola, and the 1918 Influenza pandemic. It will not be the last. Hopefully the world's governments will have learnt enough to limit the next even if they can't stop such diseases. Well, how can you stop a new disease until it appears? You can't because you don't know it exists until then. All you can do is try to limit the risk of that hazard by learning the causes and avoiding them in future.
====
I ridiculed the word "pre-planned" because, like the words "pre-order" and "pre-book", it [i]is[/i] ridiculous. You cannot plan, order or book anything before you do indeed plan, book or order it ; unless you are Dr. Who, perhaps. It shows only the level of the conspiracy-fantasy.
PRAISE30 · 26-30
@ArishMell i should have asked this question in detail,,, i meant that covid pandemic could be pre-planned conspiracy by ONE COUNTRY CHINA,,,, a biological weapon used to affect other countries,,,, and many people got confused with the question,,, of course,,, no country will do this to ruin their own economy,,,, but ONE COUNTRY CAN DO THIS TO RUIN OTHERS,,,,
PRAISE30 · 26-30
@ArishMell WAR HAS NO END, nowadays there are other ways to affect other countries without using weapon,, because one can use virus,,,,, actually more than 10 million people die from cancer every year,,, and 7 million died from covid,, (one more thing to mention, many covid patients died NOT BECAUSE OF CORONA ITSELF BUT BECAUSE OF STRONG MEDICINES THAT THEY WERE GIVEN)))
losthorizons · 51-55, M
@ArishMell you my friend need to get your head out of the sand and see the real world. It was def planned and done by design. Please stop talking if you don’t know the facts. It make you look silly. Also masks don’t work so stop wearing one by yourself alone in the car
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@losthorizons I Irealise that's what you want to believe for whatever is your reason, but it is a belief that stands up to no logic.
Why do you want everyone to think as you think, that was a pan-national "conspiracy"?
By whom and for what reason or gain?
How do you think it possible to keep any such thing both secret and under whatever was its intended control?
Why do think it would even be possible, when they can't sort out far simpler things like trading arrangements between two nations without all manner of difficulties?
Where are you writing from? Moscow? North Korea?
Why do you want everyone to think as you think, that was a pan-national "conspiracy"?
By whom and for what reason or gain?
How do you think it possible to keep any such thing both secret and under whatever was its intended control?
Why do think it would even be possible, when they can't sort out far simpler things like trading arrangements between two nations without all manner of difficulties?
Where are you writing from? Moscow? North Korea?
PRAISE30 · 26-30
@ArishMell hello sir, i am from india,,, i would like to share some facts with you,,US intelligence department were keeping eyes on china using satellite and they have shared pictures of a hospital in wuhan of october 2019, there were so many cars more than usual,,,
wuhan diary (if you have heared of it), chinese people have shared the truth that hospitals were full of many patients and so many people were dying and govt was hiding it,
WHO did not warn all countries on time, trump got angry and decided not to give them $500 million donation per year,
not only trump but all presidents of other countries, over 100 countries' president wanted to inspect wuhan city & laboratory, but chinese govt did not allow it,, how is this possible that china was handling the situation in the year 2019 and WHO did not warn other countries on time,,,,, and most countries issued ban in the year 2020 (months after the appearance of covid cases, that's why many people like me do not trust WHO),,,, so many foreign companies decided to stop working in china and have left that country,,,, why did not china tell about it in the year 2019?,,,
my cousin brother is a doctor and he has treated covid patients during lockdown,,, he told me that allopathic medicines were harmful for old people, if patient had high fever they will try to decrease the temperature, and many patients suffered from "happy hypoxia" (((((In Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), some patients have low oxygen saturation without any dyspnea. This has been termed “happy hypoxia.” No worldwide prevalence survey of this phenomenon has been conducted. source ncbi indian govt site))))),,,, my cousin brother also told me that many people were dying not because of virus itself but because of effects of allopathic medicines,,,, and guess what my brother treated so many patients of covid without strong medications,,,, even an 80 year old woman,,, a survey named as "sero survery" was done in india and it was found that more than 100 million people would have infected with corona virus and had mild symptoms such as fever but they did not do anything, they just ate a paracetamol and were perfectly fine after 1-3 days,,,, i am not blaming my govt or your govt,,,, on the basis of all these facts i strongly believe that china and WHO was behind it,,, more than 10 million die from cancer yearly ( actually so many die from chemotherapy) and we lost 7 million people because of covid pandemic in 2 years,,,, (can we all agree that it was a conspiracy by one country? I AGREE WITH IT)
wuhan diary (if you have heared of it), chinese people have shared the truth that hospitals were full of many patients and so many people were dying and govt was hiding it,
WHO did not warn all countries on time, trump got angry and decided not to give them $500 million donation per year,
not only trump but all presidents of other countries, over 100 countries' president wanted to inspect wuhan city & laboratory, but chinese govt did not allow it,, how is this possible that china was handling the situation in the year 2019 and WHO did not warn other countries on time,,,,, and most countries issued ban in the year 2020 (months after the appearance of covid cases, that's why many people like me do not trust WHO),,,, so many foreign companies decided to stop working in china and have left that country,,,, why did not china tell about it in the year 2019?,,,
my cousin brother is a doctor and he has treated covid patients during lockdown,,, he told me that allopathic medicines were harmful for old people, if patient had high fever they will try to decrease the temperature, and many patients suffered from "happy hypoxia" (((((In Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), some patients have low oxygen saturation without any dyspnea. This has been termed “happy hypoxia.” No worldwide prevalence survey of this phenomenon has been conducted. source ncbi indian govt site))))),,,, my cousin brother also told me that many people were dying not because of virus itself but because of effects of allopathic medicines,,,, and guess what my brother treated so many patients of covid without strong medications,,,, even an 80 year old woman,,, a survey named as "sero survery" was done in india and it was found that more than 100 million people would have infected with corona virus and had mild symptoms such as fever but they did not do anything, they just ate a paracetamol and were perfectly fine after 1-3 days,,,, i am not blaming my govt or your govt,,,, on the basis of all these facts i strongly believe that china and WHO was behind it,,, more than 10 million die from cancer yearly ( actually so many die from chemotherapy) and we lost 7 million people because of covid pandemic in 2 years,,,, (can we all agree that it was a conspiracy by one country? I AGREE WITH IT)
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@PRAISE30 Thank you for a very interesting perspective on it.
It soon became very clear the Chinese Government was trying to deny anything had happened in its own country, perhaps to avoid panic or perhaps to show their system can do no wrong (who knows?) .
We also all know they tried to obstruct investigation by foreigners including the WHO - a move that only made a lot of people outside of the country very suspicious that the officials in Beijing were trying to cover up failings. It also encouraged speculation and accusations without evidence, such as this "conspiracy" idea.
However, the pandemic hit China very hard indeed, so the idea that China herself created the disease to hurt everyone else just does not add up. Especially since after trying to deny its existence the government then published its nature to health authorities internationally.
Actually the origin of SARS-Covid-19 is still not really known, largely due to that lack of co-operation into finding the source, by mere politicians running China as a very tight dictatorship. However, it would not be the first disease to have come from animals (e.g. Bubonic Plague carried by rats but transferred to humans by fleas, the 1918 Influenza recently traced to America, and Ebola now known to be from chimpanzees killed for meat in WW1); and very likely it will not be the last.
It is even possible Covid did not come from China, but China is where it was first identified in enough cases and as a new illness, to raise alarm.
The idea that the World Health Organisation would create a pandemic is absurd. Its role is to encourage health, not destroy it, but there are people who want any excuse to attack it for their own political ends. Some of those include people determined to campaign against vaccinations, presumably against any disease - why they want dangerous, often disabling or fatal diseases rife in the world only they know but won't admit.
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Covid affects people in many different ways. Many indeed do suffer only very mild symptoms, especially if protected by a combination of vaccination and general good health; but some developed peculiar ranges of conditions lasting for months afterwards (so-called "Long Covid").
Others died.
Just because disease X kills A-million people a year but Y kills fewer does not make disease Y, and is fatalities, somehow less important! Even if true statistically that is a callous way to think of it.
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A friend who is a retired medical lecturer told me one day, "Just be grateful it was not Ebola".
To which I might add, Bubonic Plague. Yes, that is still with us.
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As for me, to the best of my knowledge I have not had Covid, or at least if infected was not ill. However, I am inoculated against it; as well as against Influenza, Pneumonia (some two dozen strains!), Shingles, Poliomyelitis, Tubercolosis and Tetanus. Strange how I am still alive in my ealry-70s despite governments around the world conspiring to kill me by illness....
It soon became very clear the Chinese Government was trying to deny anything had happened in its own country, perhaps to avoid panic or perhaps to show their system can do no wrong (who knows?) .
We also all know they tried to obstruct investigation by foreigners including the WHO - a move that only made a lot of people outside of the country very suspicious that the officials in Beijing were trying to cover up failings. It also encouraged speculation and accusations without evidence, such as this "conspiracy" idea.
However, the pandemic hit China very hard indeed, so the idea that China herself created the disease to hurt everyone else just does not add up. Especially since after trying to deny its existence the government then published its nature to health authorities internationally.
Actually the origin of SARS-Covid-19 is still not really known, largely due to that lack of co-operation into finding the source, by mere politicians running China as a very tight dictatorship. However, it would not be the first disease to have come from animals (e.g. Bubonic Plague carried by rats but transferred to humans by fleas, the 1918 Influenza recently traced to America, and Ebola now known to be from chimpanzees killed for meat in WW1); and very likely it will not be the last.
It is even possible Covid did not come from China, but China is where it was first identified in enough cases and as a new illness, to raise alarm.
The idea that the World Health Organisation would create a pandemic is absurd. Its role is to encourage health, not destroy it, but there are people who want any excuse to attack it for their own political ends. Some of those include people determined to campaign against vaccinations, presumably against any disease - why they want dangerous, often disabling or fatal diseases rife in the world only they know but won't admit.
.
Covid affects people in many different ways. Many indeed do suffer only very mild symptoms, especially if protected by a combination of vaccination and general good health; but some developed peculiar ranges of conditions lasting for months afterwards (so-called "Long Covid").
Others died.
Just because disease X kills A-million people a year but Y kills fewer does not make disease Y, and is fatalities, somehow less important! Even if true statistically that is a callous way to think of it.
.
A friend who is a retired medical lecturer told me one day, "Just be grateful it was not Ebola".
To which I might add, Bubonic Plague. Yes, that is still with us.
.
As for me, to the best of my knowledge I have not had Covid, or at least if infected was not ill. However, I am inoculated against it; as well as against Influenza, Pneumonia (some two dozen strains!), Shingles, Poliomyelitis, Tubercolosis and Tetanus. Strange how I am still alive in my ealry-70s despite governments around the world conspiring to kill me by illness....
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@gol979 It is so that many Covid fatalities were already weak - as was a friend of mine who died from it - but that is not an excuse for it.
The "lab leak" theory is credible but probably weak - the alternative, that it came from poor animal handling and hygiene, is entirely credible. The difficulty was the Chinese government's utter inability to handle it properly and unwillingness to co-operate in proper investigation. We should remember also that the laboratory in Wuhan was not soley Chinese. It employed biologists from "Western" countries too.
I do wonder if in fact the disease entered China from elsewhere, but was first identified there. That would be parallel with the 1918 Influenza pandemic mistakenly called "the Spanish Flu" only because the war-time Press in neutral Spain were free to report on it there. I don't recall reading or hearing of any attempt to investigate that possibility for Covid because all the attention was on the country that identified it..
What has no credibility at all is the strange allegation with no evidence, that the pandemic was started deliberately by unknown people as a "weapon" of unpredictable effects, and as dangerous to its users as whoever it was supposedly intended to attack for no known reason. I have no idea where this notion is from: some fantasist on the so-called "Dark Web", 8-Chan, or the like?
The "lab leak" theory is credible but probably weak - the alternative, that it came from poor animal handling and hygiene, is entirely credible. The difficulty was the Chinese government's utter inability to handle it properly and unwillingness to co-operate in proper investigation. We should remember also that the laboratory in Wuhan was not soley Chinese. It employed biologists from "Western" countries too.
I do wonder if in fact the disease entered China from elsewhere, but was first identified there. That would be parallel with the 1918 Influenza pandemic mistakenly called "the Spanish Flu" only because the war-time Press in neutral Spain were free to report on it there. I don't recall reading or hearing of any attempt to investigate that possibility for Covid because all the attention was on the country that identified it..
What has no credibility at all is the strange allegation with no evidence, that the pandemic was started deliberately by unknown people as a "weapon" of unpredictable effects, and as dangerous to its users as whoever it was supposedly intended to attack for no known reason. I have no idea where this notion is from: some fantasist on the so-called "Dark Web", 8-Chan, or the like?
PRAISE30 · 26-30
@ArishMell glad to know that you are good at age of 70+,,
(Source Indian council of medical research, official site,,,, Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a novel disease caused by a newly identified virus, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). The novel disease which begun in Wuhan, China in Dec 2019 was declareda pandemic by World Health Organization on 11 March 2020.
i still do believe on basis on facts that china and WHO were responsible at least at some extent😊,,
US intelligence department says it all started not in dec 2019 but in october 2019😂,,,
China has very strong control over its media, they literally control news channels of their country, if they want something not to share with others then they will definitely control it,,
Other than this, whenever in India we try to make a new law, then opposition opposes it, and guess what china helps them,
I hope, we will not have another pandemic like this,,,, these lockdowns were so bad, financially it has affected almost everyone
We humans have destroyed our environment & have killed so many animals, air pollution, water pollution, our fertility is decreasing ( yes, it is decreasing), we humans have become weak and more vulnerable to diseases,,,, a rheumatologist said that there was time when people of age 60+ had arthiritis, but nowadays 30-35 year old people are having it,,,, if it goes on like this we there will be no trees after 150 years, and there will be no animals after 150-200 years,,
(Source Indian council of medical research, official site,,,, Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a novel disease caused by a newly identified virus, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). The novel disease which begun in Wuhan, China in Dec 2019 was declareda pandemic by World Health Organization on 11 March 2020.
i still do believe on basis on facts that china and WHO were responsible at least at some extent😊,,
US intelligence department says it all started not in dec 2019 but in october 2019😂,,,
China has very strong control over its media, they literally control news channels of their country, if they want something not to share with others then they will definitely control it,,
Other than this, whenever in India we try to make a new law, then opposition opposes it, and guess what china helps them,
I hope, we will not have another pandemic like this,,,, these lockdowns were so bad, financially it has affected almost everyone
We humans have destroyed our environment & have killed so many animals, air pollution, water pollution, our fertility is decreasing ( yes, it is decreasing), we humans have become weak and more vulnerable to diseases,,,, a rheumatologist said that there was time when people of age 60+ had arthiritis, but nowadays 30-35 year old people are having it,,,, if it goes on like this we there will be no trees after 150 years, and there will be no animals after 150-200 years,,
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@PRAISE30 Thankyou!
I always thought the real start of the pandemic was earlier than China admitted, as they were trying both to deny it and control it.
Another thought though: was it in fact already on its world tour earlier than we all realised? There are so many people travelling around the world every day that a some infected people could well already have been spreading it without anyone realising.
Regarding the lockdowns, yes, they certainly were extremely damaging economically and socially but even with hindsight it is difficult to think what anyone could have done otherwise. They were quarantines, in effect, and the word "quarantine" comes from the Italians developing that method back in the 14C when waves of Bubonic Plague were sweeping across Europe.
The drop in fertility is odd. I don't know if anyone has discovered why it is happening but it is creating strains in societies by creating unbalanced proportions of young and old. Yet not so long ago we all worried about too many humans. Very difficult problem indeed.
At the same time, many people are now living longer but not necessarily better, needing more medical care for more years. I have had arthritis, ending with knee replacements, and those in my 60s so not especially old.
....
I don't think we will lose all trees and animals worldwide but we are likely to cause huge shifts with large regions losing their wildlife, and becoming arid and uninhabitable.
There are reports of couple saying they will not have children because they are frightened what sort of world those born now will eventually have as adults.
I always thought the real start of the pandemic was earlier than China admitted, as they were trying both to deny it and control it.
Another thought though: was it in fact already on its world tour earlier than we all realised? There are so many people travelling around the world every day that a some infected people could well already have been spreading it without anyone realising.
Regarding the lockdowns, yes, they certainly were extremely damaging economically and socially but even with hindsight it is difficult to think what anyone could have done otherwise. They were quarantines, in effect, and the word "quarantine" comes from the Italians developing that method back in the 14C when waves of Bubonic Plague were sweeping across Europe.
The drop in fertility is odd. I don't know if anyone has discovered why it is happening but it is creating strains in societies by creating unbalanced proportions of young and old. Yet not so long ago we all worried about too many humans. Very difficult problem indeed.
At the same time, many people are now living longer but not necessarily better, needing more medical care for more years. I have had arthritis, ending with knee replacements, and those in my 60s so not especially old.
....
I don't think we will lose all trees and animals worldwide but we are likely to cause huge shifts with large regions losing their wildlife, and becoming arid and uninhabitable.
There are reports of couple saying they will not have children because they are frightened what sort of world those born now will eventually have as adults.
PRAISE30 · 26-30
@ArishMell yes, all nations were helpless, they had no option but to lockdown the country, and we people had no choice but to follow the rules,
No, i am not connecting covid with fertility,, i was just saying that we have ruined our environment by pollution and in our fertility is decreasing as well, humans have become weak and we are more vulnerable to diseases,,,
arthritis, i have experienced it in my childhood, when i was 15 year old, i had pain in 12 joints of my both hands and legs, it lasted for 8-10 months,,,
yes, sir you have read that right, we will lose trees and animals after 150-200 years, in the last 50-100 years we have wiped out almost 50% of animals & trees,,,,, many scientists have said that,,,, humans will face many problems after year 2060, lack of fresh water, more pollution, higher temperature, and many other problems
No, i am not connecting covid with fertility,, i was just saying that we have ruined our environment by pollution and in our fertility is decreasing as well, humans have become weak and we are more vulnerable to diseases,,,
arthritis, i have experienced it in my childhood, when i was 15 year old, i had pain in 12 joints of my both hands and legs, it lasted for 8-10 months,,,
yes, sir you have read that right, we will lose trees and animals after 150-200 years, in the last 50-100 years we have wiped out almost 50% of animals & trees,,,,, many scientists have said that,,,, humans will face many problems after year 2060, lack of fresh water, more pollution, higher temperature, and many other problems
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@PRAISE30 I realised you were connecting the pandemic with low fertility. They are quite different things and pollution may well be one reason for the latter.
The future is certainly bleak. We might be able to reduce pollution, but shortages of water are being recognised as a growing, major future hazard even in relatively moist countries like Britain.
There is another looming problem less often discussed, and that is the depletion of natural resources we have to rely on for so much. Metals can be re-used, and so can some other materials to a point, but most such re-processing requires a lot of heat that has to come from something.
Refining steel certainly does, due to its thermal properties including very high melting-point and forging temperatures, but steel, which is an alloy of iron and carbon plus sometimes other metals, is our most important class of metal. It is fundamental to virtually everything we do, use or own.
When we have no more petroleum or coal though, either by choice or by having used it all, how are we going to replace so many of the raw chemicals they provide as well as fuels?
We may remove one serious problem such as producing far too much atmospheric carbon-dioxide, but doing so may create further problems itself. Whatever we do will not be easy or pleasant, which is why some people still try desperately to deny any such problems.
The future is certainly bleak. We might be able to reduce pollution, but shortages of water are being recognised as a growing, major future hazard even in relatively moist countries like Britain.
There is another looming problem less often discussed, and that is the depletion of natural resources we have to rely on for so much. Metals can be re-used, and so can some other materials to a point, but most such re-processing requires a lot of heat that has to come from something.
Refining steel certainly does, due to its thermal properties including very high melting-point and forging temperatures, but steel, which is an alloy of iron and carbon plus sometimes other metals, is our most important class of metal. It is fundamental to virtually everything we do, use or own.
When we have no more petroleum or coal though, either by choice or by having used it all, how are we going to replace so many of the raw chemicals they provide as well as fuels?
We may remove one serious problem such as producing far too much atmospheric carbon-dioxide, but doing so may create further problems itself. Whatever we do will not be easy or pleasant, which is why some people still try desperately to deny any such problems.