* If a woman decides to have the child, should the man involved have the ability to opt out of the legal obligations of fatherhood?

@ViciDraco vasectomy? Thats a strong move.. even if it was an accident!?. Don’t you think that is a little bit harsh?

@Curiousguy833 if you aren't willing to be responsible for a child, you should not put yourself into a position where you can abandon a second one. If you aren't willing to go that far, then man up and take care of the kid you did have. The process is reversable.

I think it is completely reasonable.

@ViciDraco that actually sounds like a fair compromise.

@KaiserSolze that's what I was thinking. People make mistakes. But some guys would happily have ten kids and not take responsibility for any of them. We can find a way to not trap a man for a single mistake without letting him become a serial child abandoner.

@ViciDraco to take into account a woman who might lie and say "I'm on contraception" to a guy who never wants kids. And also if he never wanted kids he won't mind a vasectomy. A serial baby abandoning man would think twice because he wouldn't want a vasectomy and therefore would be more careful. The onus is obviously always gonna be more on the woman contraception wise but you do get men who lie and say they have no kids, have babies and leave.

I think you gat a pretty good idea there.

@KaiserSolze what if a guy wants to have kids but not at this moment and this sometimes accidents accidents happen and she is pregnant but doesn’t want to have the kid but the guy does... what happens then?

@Curiousguy833 when he's ready to have kids he starts paying to help support the one he has and can then get the procedure reversed.

@ViciDraco sounds fair again.

@ViciDraco haha interesting point of view! I like it!

Does that mean when he is ready he gets to step into that child life and have as much say as the mother? Almost makes child support sound like a deposit of some kind lol..

@Curiousguy833 I think we need more psychological study to know what is best for the child regarding the father's reentry into their life. It might be that they just take on financial burden without custody. Or it might be that they get shared custody of they wish it.

@ViciDraco negotiable depending on individual circumstances like standard custody arrangements and the child's wishes depending on age, sounds feasible.

@ViciDraco a study is always welcome but I think it’s hard not to agree that women have a lot of power on weather a child dies or not without the consent of the FATHER of the child? Or weather the father has equal rights when the father is ready to set up and be part of the child’s life when they didn’t consent to it in the first? (Side note: does a mother have to pay child support if they leave the child? E.g single fathers? )

Don’t make this personal man. Objectively, you can see this shit don’t make sense 🤷🏽‍♂️

@Curiousguy833 yes women have to pay child support if they leave a child to the father - I knew a woman who did this. It's rare but happens.

@KaiserSolze come on lol! You are getting technical and that not the question here.

It takes two people to make a kid and they have equal rights till one of them gives up that right! Surely we can agree on that?

But the truth is that men get the short straw here. As soon as the women gets pregnant... they get all the power and nothing the guy says matters. Good or bad and that is not fair! Legally we have to deal with the consequences of your actions when we didn’t even have a say!?

Surely there should be a legal way out for the guys and should be based on a “ individual circumstances” of course :)

@KaiserSolze women might pay child support, but that’s ok when you get the choice to have he child or not.

Do you really believe this is fair for the father?

@Curiousguy833 the father's life is not in danger if something goes wrong with the pregnancy.

@Curiousguy833 no. Women died, were locked up in psychiatric hospitals, abused in marriages for millenia when men had the say. So no, you had only about 40 year of this, you can't be trusted with the say.

You got the easiest deal now - no responsibility and it might cost you money (not your life or your freedom or your conscience like women have dealt with and still deal with to an extent).

@ViciDraco problems with pregnancies are rare and are the extremes here not the normal.

I feel like you are pulling at straws here man lol. I guess It comes down to a question of equality here. Either men and women are equal in all things or you accept that we are not equal because we are not the same... and that’s not a bad thing 😁🙄🤷🏽‍♂️

@Curiousguy833 he's clutching at straws? Tell that to the women dieing having secret illegal abortions all around the world.

@KaiserSolze i feel like you are diverting away from the question here lol. Yes I agree that women have struggles in the past and it was wrong!... some might say men have as well (but maybe not to the same level) For example, if you look at the world TODAY (not even 40 years ago) a man’s life can be ruined by false allegations by a women with a basically no evidence. How about the fact that domestic violence against men in marriages is not taken serious till TODAY and that new label that I hear these days... “ toxic masculinity”? (E.g a man should not show emotions and should “man up”)

Again you are going far away from my question here because you know I am right and it’s not fair for men in “this” situation. If you want equality and you are saying men and women are the same... then that goes for everything 😊

@KaiserSolze illegal abortions is bad! I agree! So is killing my child against my consent even tho you were willing to make it.. and there is nothing I can do about it legally.

Having an “opt out” option for men I think makes things equal when it comes to the law.

@Curiousguy833 men and women aren't the same.

Women suffered. Now men are starting to suffer.

I'm not saying it's "right" I am saying it's the natural course of things.

For true equality to be reached men would have to experience the full range of suffering. From being kept at home, to fear of rape by women, to being burned as witches, to having no vote or say in anything.

We'll never be equal. I doubt men will ever experience the oppression women have suffered.

But as I said you had only about 40 years of some words and a bit less say in some parts of the world. I won't be shedding any tears for your tribulations just yet.

@KaiserSolze firstly... I don’t represent all men and from your wording I can see this is getting real personal for you and you are targeting me. Please don’t lol, am just a curious guy and I like to see how people think and see their point of view lol.

But...I can’t help but try to make you see another point of view here! I personally believe that women and men are not the same..but for different reasons. Men and women are almost different species, we don’t think the same, we are biologically not there he same, we have completely different struggles and strengths.

If you want to talk about history, then that is a different story. Generally speaking women have suffered in the past..true! But times have changed and we are trying to do better! It was men pushing that change just as much as women. (I know this is going to piss you off lol 😅 but do you really think women would have made such progress of equality if you did not have some support of me at that time?)

True equality will only come when we accept that men and women are different. We can’t do what you can, and you can’t do what we can...and that’s fine.

@KaiserSolze clearly this is personally for you guys. So let me just say that I 100% believe that if I have a child with someone else at that i need to step up and take responsibility. I was raised that way and I don’t see how someone can walk away when I know that is my child.

Just trying to play “devils advocate” to get people to see another point of view for a second. That’s all

@Curiousguy833 so women should be greatful for some minor improvements over a relatively small percentage of the world because men allowed it?

Truth is men are frightened of women on a deep subconscious level due to our power to be able to effectively reproduce you. It's scary, it's emasculating. Men have therefore always attempted to take back that power but you can't. You made laws, imprisoned us, socially condition us but if a woman wants to bare life or not and is able she will or won't regardless of any added suffering, embarrassment or harm to herself that man made laws and social norms can inflict on her.

It wouldn't matter if you got your "right to opt out of responsibility" or not or "a say in abortion or not" A woman will do what she wants regarding an unborn child. Women either would or wouldn't care about financial input as part of their decision process. If a woman wanted that child bad enough she'd find a way to have it regardless of court rulings telling her to abort. She'd find a way to abort if she wanted to and a court told her she couldn't. So in reality it doesn't matter if you got "more say" or not.

What would definitely happen is more women would have babies without telling the father or claiming not to know who the father is. You can police that too but again it women would find a way to do what they want within their preferences and capabilities - of which we have many. Women will die to have or not have a child - will men do that? They may be willing to die for already born chi that they "want" but not unborn. And isn't that disgusting really, when I think of it like that, wanting to give choice to the person who isn't willing to die for their choice over the one who is? I think it's disgusting. I'd give the choice to the person more likely and willing to die for their choice than a bystander which is pretty much what the guy is until the baby is born unless he chooses to support the mother in her difficult actually life threatening choice.