Post the last pic in ur screenshots folder 👀

@InOtterWords that's a good advice

@Thanos i did post about it but you never see my posts

@InOtterWords haha I do too 😱

@InOtterWords I've seen a few posts about this case and the #metoo movement saying women can now falsely accuse men and ruin their lives. While I'm sure there are women evil enough to do that, I've grown to resent how anytime women raise the issue of sexual assault, men go on the defensive and cry sexism.

@Straylight exactly this

Let me send you a link of what i was discussing earlier today

@Straylight aaaaaand

The other thing is when a woman talks about sexual assault and a man says "not all nen"

I mean we know not everyman is a rapust, but the fact they need to say that is being dismissive of what a woman has gone through

@InOtterWords It really feels like they're saying "shut up and get back in your place."

@Straylight the sad reality is one in five women are raped so chances are every guy will have had either a mum/sister/wife/daughter/aunt/niece/cousin who has been a victime of sexual violence

Does that not make them wamt things to change?

@Straylight They are absolutely saying that. The not all men argument isn't about anything except "This conversation topic is uncomfortable and I want it to go away." Because these people aren't defining a problem or suggesting solutions. It's entirely a silencing move.

@CountScrofula thank you so much for getting it 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗

@CountScrofula Its like when someone says black lives matter, someone will chime in with all lives matter. Yes, obviously they do, but what they're saying is black lives matter too. Of course not all men are rapists, but some are. Women too. It's worth talking about this because then we can identify the things and culture that encourage us to treat some like they're not people and do better for the next generation.

@InOtterWords 🤗

@Straylight Right it's entirely the same thinking. If you think about this political discourse as a narrative, so many people can't handle the protagonist being someone who is not a white man.

So Black Lives Matter needs to be All Lives Matter so they're included. The appalling amount of sexual assaults committed my men shouldn't be mentioned, in case other men are tarred with the same brush.

Honestly, same deal with feminism. People advocating 'equalism' or whatever the fuck don't actually care about gender issues and have never done a thing in their life about it. They just want to be the hero of every story.

@CountScrofula Its how feminist became a dirty word. A few women lashed out with some nasty things to say about men and they all went "See? Female sexists are as bad as, nay, worse than male sexists!" And now you can safely dismiss a feminist argument because they're all crazy feminazis.

@CountScrofula i am a feminist, but i often talk about gender equality. I have before posted about the men in my life who have helped shape thw woman i am today. I don't like how men are portrayed in the media.

And i do things about it, i educate my children, and my daughter ran a campaign at school for boys to be allowed to wear shorts. It was granted, the first school in the county to do so.

But sadly i know women like us are few and far between. I think it is harder for men to speak out when there is an injustice to their gender

@Straylight Man I wish people would do that with capitalists and let the most deranged fringes speak for the whole. "What's that? You want to murder unionists and reinstate serfdom?"

@InOtterWords Oh yeah, well feminism IS gender equality - it's just realized through empowering women. But like...

So imagine you have a body that is 17 men and 3 women intended to represent a population. Feminism would state that body should have close to 10 women, 10 men. The "equalists" will then say "but what about the seven men out of a job? They deserve equal rights too!"

And so the status quo marches on.

@CountScrofula but imagine being asked to be a part of that body as a tiken female, not because they think you will add anything to it.

@InOtterWords I get that, it's insulting.

But the thing is all the white men on these powerful bodies are tokens too. They were picked because they were white men - because if they were not white men, they wouldn't have been picked. Right? And they sure aren't bothered by it. If they believe they deserve to be there, why shouldn't anyone else?

@CountScrofula As an egalitarian myself, no, that's not really how that works. And it's where things get really messy with gender issues, or race issues or culture issues. Really any kind of social stratification. The established hierarchy is not necessarily the way it is because it was intentionally made that way and not all who participate in it are privy to its negatives. Just because a man gets into a high paying position with lots of executive power doesn't innately make him part of 'the patriarchy.' The key should not be equal placement in positions, that's tokenism, it should be equal consideration and opportunity. Like it or not, that knife absolutely does cut both ways.

@CountScrofula because anyone else has to fight harder to be given the same opportunity.

Being a brown female in a white male dominated industry I know what it is like

@UndeadPrivateer I don't really care about individuals but aggregate wholes. Patriarchy is just a description of how society works, it's not a club you join or leave.

My point is that we don't live in a meritocracy. People assume the status quo selects the best and brightest to have the best positions in society. I don't see any evidence of that.

When I talk about selecting people for a board, I mean a public board which are intended to be representative. The best person for the job is not a case of raw skills and experience but those -plus- background, interests and all that. It's a political question, not one of objective merit. And in these cases, why on earth would you not want half women? Provided of course, you have the pool to draw from. A problem is women are so recently in the workforce your talent pool is smaller.

People are promoted or advanced because of their identity all the time. What's changed is we're considering more than one identity now. That's my point.

@CountScrofula I worked for a bank that put more women on the board, and they actively worked toward promoting and recruiting more women to make it more equal . However, every single male on the board was a father, every single female was not a mother.

@InOtterWords Over here in California, specifically in the Silicon Valley, there's a lot of highly detrimental tokenism that goes on in companies trying to promote a specific public image. Not really with hiring women(though it is true in those cases for some too) but moreso in hiring minorities. To the point they will have a considerable portion of their staff being underqualified minority and it drags down the quality of their products as a result. This then leads to tension in the offices that perform this tokenism that can boil over into full-blown racism, which is exactly the reason why tokenism is something best avoided. It will lead to people who are qualified for roles being turned down for an underqualified competitor because the competitor fits a specific criteria, then will cause the qualified workers to feel aggression toward the underqualified worker who only got the job because they're the token minority the company wants for staff photos.

Mind you, this has a kind of amusing comparison to sexism in that, for purely genetic reasons, there are more women than men on the planet. If you were to go with statistical tokenism then men would be permanently stuck in the minority in all fields. That's not good either. The ideal is for the best qualified person to be picked regardless of race, gender, culture or nationality. And, of course, for all people to have equal opportunity to acquire the skills to be that most qualified person.

@UndeadPrivateer Yeah and we have a base issue where the talent pool simply isn't there because all the women got chased out of tech in the 70s. So we had a generation who are now prime age for the work force grow up being told computers are for boys. My experience is public sector so the silicon valley problem is only one I'm peripherally aware of. A sudden run on a need for women in boards to keep up appearances is gonna bring trouble and I appreciate the practical problems there.

I still think merit is a load of crap but if someone is underqualified they're underqualified. It's a huge growing pain.

@InOtterWords Yeah, that's another enormous problem -if you wanna be a super successful woman you're basically not allowed to have a family. The solution is really great paternity leave and more dads staying at home to raise kids but that's a long-term cultural change (short term policy one though).

@CountScrofula (Using quotes here to make it more clear what I'm referring to.)

[quote]I still think merit is a load of crap[/quote]

That line confuses me, I don't understand what you mean. You don't think skills are a real thing? :?

[quote]but if someone is underqualified they're underqualified. It's a huge growing pain.[/quote]

It's more than a growing pain. It literally destroys some companies and as a result people's livelihoods.

[quote]Yeah and we have a base issue where the talent pool simply isn't there because all the women got chased out of tech in the 70s. So we had a generation who are now prime age for the work force grow up being told computers are for boys. My experience is public sector so the silicon valley problem is only one I'm peripherally aware of. A sudden run on a need for women in boards to keep up appearances is gonna bring trouble and I appreciate the practical problems there. [/quote]

The lack of women in the tech industry is definitely something of a cultural child rearing issue, though it is not unique to the tech industry or even to women. There are a lot of cases of men, women, various racial minorities and cultures either intentionally or subconsciously steering their children away from specific fields because of a perception that it isn't 'the right field for them.' There's also a lot of more complicated factors but that is the simplest and least likely to offend when spoken about. People get touchy about these subjects, though for understandable reasons.

[quote]@Babylon Yeah, that's another enormous problem -if you wanna be a super successful woman you're basically not allowed to have a family. The solution is really great paternity leave and more dads staying at home to raise kids but that's a long-term cultural change (short term policy one though).[/quote]

Have you read the studies on pay rates for women and men over extended periods with maternity and paternity leave factored in? It's actually pretty enlightening as to why things are the way they are on that front. I'm not entirely sure what would be the solution to that, as there doesn't seem to be any simple one. Again, it's an issue that cuts both ways.