Have you noticed that God can supposedly create planets and dinosaurs and everything that humans can't make...
...but can't make anything humans [i]can[/i] make? He can't make a box or a boat or a book or a building and that's when he calls and needs [i]us[/i] to do his work for him....almost as if he's imaginary and can't really do anything himself... -Aron Ra
Makes ya think🤷♀️
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Do you really think he couldn't? He told the Israelites exactly how to make them, gave them specific instructions because they did not know how. Why do you suppose that he did that?
I think you're missing the point. It's not that an omnipotent being couldn't make a boat or a box or a tabernacle...it's that all the things people know how to make, humans made and everything we don't know how to make was made by god. It's god of the gaps. Attribute to god that which eludes our understanding. The same way that weather, disease and natural disasters were historically attributed to direct divine intervention rather than predictable pressure differentials, microorganisms and tectonic shift.
The more man knows, the less it is necessary to invoke the supernatural explanation of god.
The "God of the gaps" is made up by people who don't know God. So I ask again, If there is a God why would he make a universe and then talk to Noah, and tell only him how to make an ark?
The god of the gaps is a label which identifies the tendency to attribute unknowns to a supernatural cause when the actual cause is perfectly natural but unkown. As science and knowledge advances, that unknown becomes understood in natural terms and no longer requires an appeal to supernatural forces or a god.
[quote]If there is a God why would he make a universe and then talk to Noah, and tell only him how to make an ark? [/quote]
If there i a god then his reasons are best known to himself. But that is a conceit which is not contained within the subject of this thread. This thread casts light on the suspicious fact that god's power seems to lay ainly in the gaps of human understanding.
@Pikachu Ok I'll tell you then. If there is a God and he asked Noah to build an ark and told him exactly how to make it. It proves he [i]knew[/i] how to make an ark, AND your point is mute! It [i]also[/i] proves that he cared about Noah, And that he knew the future because he was going to flood the world, And he didn't want Noah to die![b][big] BAM![/big][/b]
Yup, according to the story god knew how to build an ark and a tabernacle and a box.
Again, i think you've missed the point. Why is god only responsible for creating that which humans don't know how to create? Perhaps i can illustrate my point better by means of a question. Answer me this:
Why did humans once attribute disease to the supernatural and direct intervention of god? Was it because the supernatural and direct intervention of god is required to explain how disease spreads or was it from ignorance of how microorganisms can be transmitted by respiration, blood or elimination?
@Pikachu I’ve missed the point? I thought your point was that God doesn’t know how to make a boat! I’ve told you he gave Noah exact instructions but you still Haven’t answered WHY God told Noah and no one else how to make the Ark?
[quote]Have you noticed that God can supposedly create planets and dinosaurs and everything that humans can't make... ...but can't make anything humans can make? He can't make a box or a boat or a book or a building and that's when he calls and needs us to do his work for him....almost as if he's imaginary and can't really do anything himself... [/quote]
If you start a premise with a lie, you will never come to truth. Your premise is false!
Seems you missed the point that God wants to show us what he will do for those who love him, helping us with good knowledge to cure diseases, and how to save ourselves from floods, fires, diseases, and death! Most people understand that the universe HAS to have a creator, and not an imaginary one. Imaginary beings can't do anything. You know that! You think people imagine a god to explain how the universe came to be? No one has ever thought that. Never happened! People[i] know [/i]there is a God who made the universe because it is obvious! It is a poor excuse not to honor God when there is evidence of his handiwork everywhere.
Most scientists curing diseases come from highly educated Christian families. It starts with the wisdom that we need God. Then [i]He[/i] gives us knowledge, then [i]He[/i] makes us successful in all of our pursuits.
[quote]Joshua 1:8 Keep this book of the law always on your lips, meditate on it day and night so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.
[quote]If you start a premise with a lie, you will never come to truth. Your premise is false![/quote]
*sigh* Yes i know what the question was. I posted it lol I'm sorry you were confused by the tongue in cheek nature of the quote. Of course neither Aron Ra nor myself believe that in the context of the bible that god would literally not be able to do those things.
But i am convinced that i have adequately clarified the point being made by that glib observation lol.
Now since i did answer your question it's your turn to answer mine which i will repost here for your convenience:
Why did humans once attribute disease to the supernatural and direct intervention of god? Was it because the supernatural and direct intervention of god is required to explain how disease spreads or was it from ignorance of how microorganisms can be transmitted by respiration, blood or elimination?
[quote]You think people imagine a god to explain how the universe came to be? No one has ever thought that.[/quote]
But...i'm someone and i'm thinking that right now lol I've spoken with and watched speak many people who think that. Sorry, that seems to me a bit of an odd claim.
[quote] People know there is a God who made the universe because it is obvious![/quote]
Certainly many people are convinced of that. But many people are not🤷♀️
[quote] Why did humans once attribute disease to the supernatural and direct intervention of god? Was it because the supernatural and direct intervention of god is required to explain how disease spreads or was it from ignorance of how microorganisms can be transmitted by respiration, blood or elimination?[/quote]
Sorry you keep misunderstanding my replies! Like I said many of the most educated Christian scientists believe that God creates everything, including viruses, and gives us knowledge how they spread and how to protect ourselves. 78% of all Nobel prize winners in science are Christians. Before there was Christianity, people did not understand how viruses spread or even studied Biology. They were superstitious. They believed in Thor. But Thor didn't educate them, because he doesn't exist!. When Christianinty enlightened Europe things changed. God gave us wisdom and knowledge increased.
I know you know about my family, but i will again share about my amazing Dad and how he had received invitation to nominate the Nobel prize in medicine. He was a scientist his whole life, but such a loving man and told me all the time that God is the director, not man in science!
Yeah sorry, we run into that problem from time to time lol. So help me out. If the question is: "Why did people used to attribute disease and its spread to supernatural means like god: because god is necessary to explain these things or because of ignorance of how these things work?"
Is your answer: People were superstitious [and ignorant] and Christian scientists have done good science.
Is that right? Because i do agree that ignorance and superstition are exactly why people once attributed supernatural intervention to fundamentally natural mechanisms. And lots of Christians do and did great science.
Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now! Sometimes it seems the replies get lost.
Like I said people were superstitious. People still believe in gods who are not real. Scandinavia thought Thor would thunder when he was mad 1000 years ago, and strike people down.
But Christianity is the [b]truth. [/b] It is not superstition. God does curse people with disease. It is not superstition. You might not think so, but it is the truth. And [i][/i] He gives supernatural wisdom and knowledge to Godly people, to know that antibiotics helps heal bacterial infections and washing our hands can keep us from getting sick. In many non-Christian countries people eat with their hands and don't wash their hands still. This is not proper in Europe. Most scientists are Christian or come from Christian families, and trust you me in my family we wash our hands and eat with fork and knife, and pray before we eat.
Who discovered bacteria? Antoni Van Leeuvenhoek, A Dutch Calvinist Christian born 1632.
Ok so we agree that the reason people once attributed the unknown to a god is because they were ignorant of the natural explanations and they were superstitious.
The only difference is that you are convinced Christianity is true while i'm convinced it's just another brick in the wall of superstition.
Um...yes? I mean, weren't most people in that part of the world at that time Christian? Surely just by the law of averages they were likely to be Christian? lol
Didn't say everybody lol. But Europe was where things were happening and most of Europe at that time was Christian so it would be rather more of a coincidence if they [i]hadn't[/i] been Christian🤷♀️
lol yeah, probably. There's literally no way you can argue objectively that it is [i]because[/i] they were Christian that they made this discovery....so i'm not sure this line of reasoning can go anywhere.
It doesn't. Because there so many people who [i]aren't[/i] successful even though they love Jesus. So you maybe hold the belief that loving Jesus makes us successful but all one can actually do is hold up the confirmations of this belief and explain away the contradictions. This logical fallacy is known as a confirmation bias.
There is a reason that European nations and their protestant governments thrived for 500 years or more, before they forgot their God 2000 AD.
Most of their scientists were Christian, their citizens had happy marriages with few if any divorces, had vacation homes and boats, most had very caring governments, all had 5-week vacations for all citizens, no poverty, and virtually no crime! They ranked the happiest countries in the world. That's what true Christian administrations do. They care about their citizens.
But all you're doing is declaring an observed correlation to be causation. ...but can you actually prove causality there? I think not.
Furthermore, can you prove that even if there [i]is[/i] a causal relationship between these outcomes and being a "Christian nation" that these outcomes are based not simply on the values espoused by the religious doctrine but rather a true divine providence and factual truth behind the beliefs? I think not.
You accept this uncritically as fact...so maybe i'm just more skeptical than you are😉
@Pikachu At least you agree that the values of Christianity are good for a nation. But those values come from the Bible, even though you don't attribute those values to God. And of course this is hard to prove, but logically it is as obvious that God had a hand in it, as it is obvious that God created the world, and the first cell. At least it is better logic than nothing created something 😁
The values [i]are [/i]from God himself. Some inventions, and scientific discoveries are miracles for man kind, like antibiotics, and vaccines, etc. People pray, and God hears. it's not a coincidence they were discovered by Christians. I wonder how many Christians have contributed to science. There is nothing like being inspired by God to help people.
