I Live In The United States

Our founding fathers were not Christian, they were deist freethinkers. I suggest you visit this site: http://www.freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Reno, shall I assume those Christian principles included considering all non Christians to be significantly inferior to Christians at best, and rightfully under Christian dominion?

Shall I assume those Christian principles included forcing non Christians to convert to Christianity?

Shall I assume that those Christian principles included a determination that any non Christians refusing to convert were evil, possessed by demons and Christians were entirely within their rights to eradicate them?

Shall I assume that those Christian principles included a Christian's God given right to own non-whites, and consider them property?

Shall I assume those Christian principles included a Christian's God given right to destroy one's own property if one saw fit to do so?

Shall I assume that those Christian principles included the God given right to force a slave to submit to sexual intercourse?

Shall I assume those Christian principles included a Christian's God given right to own as property any subsequent offspring resulting from forced sexual intercourse?

Shall I also assume that those Christian principles also included a Christian's God given right to discipline and/or punish any recalcitrant living property in any manner the Christian sees fit ... up to and including torturing the property to death?

Shall I assume those Christian principles included a Christian's God given right to separate family units at will, causing severe psychological suffering to the property?

Shall I assume those Christian principles included denying females a voice in government?

Denying females the right to hold public office?

Disallow prosecution of a husband for killing his wife in the event of the wife's infidelity?

Disallow prosecution of a husband for raping his wife?

Incredibly, it was a mere 40 years ago when the first of the 50 states passed legislation (amidst serious opposition from conservative Christian lawmakers) allowing a husband to face prosecution for raping his wife. It was another 20 years before all states followed suit. I think it was 1996 when the last state caved in.

These the Christian principles you are talking about Reno?

Are you upset that the U.S. is not yet a full theocracy, following all of God's laws?

Shall I also assume that those Christian principles include lying about the harm children suffer from sexual activity with adults? So your conservative Christian brethren can execute the perpetrators?

Are these the same Christian principles that demonize Muslims for the practice of child marriage, and in mind-boggling duplicity pass laws that are portrayed as protecting children from the horrors of child marriage, but don't?

Are these the same Christian principles that result in laws allowing adults to marry children 11 years old AND YOUNGER in 28 of the 50 states? Laws passed quietly by conservative Christians?

Just wondering.

Please my friend read the European history of the period and you find almost every country had a state backed / sponsored religion. Although all fell under the general heading of Christian. It could be basically be divided into two groups. Either Protestant or Roman Catholic. If you read almost any church history you will find you either supported the faith your home countries government held or you suffered the consequences. To our forefathers the idea of separation of church and state meant there would be no state sponsored belief system forced up it citizens. As to the various faiths with in the realm our forefathers recognized as Christianity were Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, Quaker, and a variety of others in the Protestant branch. As to other belief systems with the exception of Judaism everything else would have been considered pagan or savage.

Gee Danna you assume a lot. Actually a great deal of what you say is historically correct. I'll try to respond in order.
1. During certain periods in both Europe and In this country anyone who wasn't Christian was in fact considered inferior. Case in point read a little history of what our forefathers did to the Native American Indian and how they tried to force them to live like the White man. I'll be the first to admit it is heart breaking and a very sad / dark part of our countries history.
2. If you read any good history of the Christian church you will find that a great many were forced to convert. Sometimes at the point of a sword. Sad my friend but true.
3. Assumption three is very close as well. People who claimed to be Christians were not above genocide. During certain periods of church history.
4. That was a division within this country from the very start between northern and southern colonies / states over the issue of slavery and wasn't resolved until the Civil War. That my friend was purely political and economic.
5. Again that falls within the time period mentioned no. 4.
6. Your assuming a little to much destruction of another's property is anything but Christian.
7. Christian principles are one thing how others hold to them is quite another. I'm very aware of some of the disgusting things that were done on a few plantations in the south.
8. Again you reference a few degusting incidents committed on a few plantations that were anything but Christian.
But my friend you miss the point. Principles and teachings are one thing, how they are lived up or held to is quite another. There are many dark periods in Christian history and many terrible deeds were done supposedly in the name of Christianity that in truth were more political than Christian.

Actually, EVERYTHING I say is historically correct. And that history runs right up to the moment I type these words.

I think you are mistaken about the colonists trying to force the American Indians to live like the White man.

They were considered savages. When there were enough colonists they began to massacre the AI and eventually to enslave them. But the AI were far less tractable than Negroes. Whip an AI and it got you nowhere.

More ...

Reno, I do hope you won't mind if I speak bluntly.

Christianity has a built-in value system which manifests as an underlying presumption of superiority and privilege over all non believers. Your claim that this belief is confined to 'certain periods' is spurious.

Everything you write is deception.

Your "heart breaking, sad/dark part of our history" comment could not ring any more hollow.

You are, bluntly, a liar. The bible admonishes against bearing false witness against thy neighbor but it really doesn't speak to those who bear false witness for the purpose of "protecting the Faith".

In any case, I'm afraid I must lump you in with those who "claim to be Christian" due to your rampant dishonesty and breezy dismissal of the horrors perpetrated upon human beings that has continued non stop right up to today. Nor is there any indication the heinous and despicable activities of Christians is abating, or will abate in the future.

In the 1840 U.S. Census there were over 4,000,000 slaves. Other than a handful of freed blacks owning slaves the rest were owned by whites. There were approximately 385,000 slave owners.

Your claim that slavery was "resolved" by the Civil War is patently absurd. Plantation owners simply charged their newly 'freed' blacks for room and board, which invariably exceeded what the blacks could earn. They immediately passed laws allowing the owners to hunt down, arrest and imprison 'employees' if they tried to run out on their debt to the 'company stores'.

By the way, I didn't say they had the God given right to destroy someone ELSE'S property. I said their OWN property.

"A few disgusting incidents on a few plantations ... anything but Christian."

Comical. So what? Like 3? Maybe 4 disgusting incidents?

Ok. One of them was self-described demigod Thomas Jefferson who had his favorite little slave girl Sally Hemings sent over to France. I think she was 14 at the time. 45 year old Jefferson must have had trouble hooking up with little French girls.

Count Sally's daddy ... a plantation owner as one more.

Gosh. That only leaves one or two more out of hundreds of thousands of slave owners.

More ...

The ploy has worked quite well, hasn't it?

Seemingly knowledgable and quite articulate the 'true' Christian very authoritatively crushes criticism of the faith :

This can truly be considered an art form. There are, of course, many tools available to the Christian, including, for example, a vast array of methods employed to cast doubt upon the veracity of the message by attacking the credibility, character, biases, intelligence, level of knowledge and ulterior motives of the messenger.

In this instance ... my friend ... you employ a series of altogether different, and also quite common methods for deflecting criticism. Methods which, over the centuries, Christians have found to be very effective.

For those who aren't up to speed, you should know that there are Christian websites that teach you various ways to undermine any manner of criticisms.

"We are essentially in agreement ... however ..."

Yes, I won't argue that some people CLAIMING to be Christian did bad things. But they were not TRUE Christians. They were not living up to the principles of Christianity. And while it's true some of those things were pretty bad, it didn't really happen all that often. Anyway, those things got corrected and its long past. I feel terrible about what happened, nonetheless, and I admit it was a dark time.

But it's really not fair to lay the blame on Christianity. Really, it had more to do with politics and economics.

Deflect. Deflect. Deflect. Deflect.

National polls at the beginning of 2003 showed 80-83% of American adults favored a 'preemptive' attack of Iraq.

The western governments and those governments receiving significant amounts of 'aid' ... courtesy of the U.S. taxpayers ... have systematically downplayed the death toll in Iraq, but there are organizations which attempt to give an accurate count.

Impossible to really know the true numbers, of course, due to many factors.

But the average citizen can work out realistic numbers, with just a small effort.

Research.

The number of combat troops at any given time.

The number of high altitude bombers.

The number of jet fighters.

The number of attack helicopters.

Did you know that they were engaged 24 hours a day? Oh yes. Infrared technology allowed them to detect humans quite easily at night ... and from many miles away.

Did you know they had computers on board that aimed their machine guns? Oh hell yes. Once the gunner locked in the target(s) the computers took over. Just pull the trigger lad. You won't miss.

You think they stopped and asked people out at night if they were 'friendlies'? Haha. Not a chance.

The really cool thing was, the attack aircraft could be so far away that the people didn't even know our brave fighting men were targeting them.

One strange thing though. We couldn't seem to distinguish between ADULTS and CHILDREN.

Oh well. Kids shouldn't be outside at night anyway, right?

Especially not hanging out in groups. Lol!!

When our attack helicopters went out, they did so with one goal in mind.

Kill people.

They went out hunting people to kill.

As far as our troops were concerned, if they weren't 'coalition' troops then they were the ENEMY.

Take a reasonable guess how many aircraft of the total number were out at any given time.

Were there like 3-4 attack helicopters out hunting?

Umm. No.

Lots more than that.

Did they more often than not find anybody to kill?

Umm. No.

Did you know that they could detect the presence of human beings through the walls of tents and even houses?

Oh yes.

By the way. What percent of our brave fighting forces held religious beliefs?

5%? 10%? 50%?

How about 90+%?

Yes. That's better.

What religion do you think was predominant?

Buddhism?

Hindu?

Shinto?

Muslim?

Umm. No.

Christian. By far the vast majority of our sacred troops were Christian.

In fact, they were quite vocal about not wanting non believers around.

Anyway, simple math, and very conservative estimates of the number of aircraft in use at any given moment, and very conservative estimates of the number of kills for each craft and you still come up with staggering figures.

There is no question that the very 'principled' Christians slaughtered well over ONE MILLION Iraqis.

And they WERE slaughtered.

THEY didn't have bombers.

THEY didn't have jet fighters.

THEY didn't have attack helicopters.

THEY didn't have infrared.

THEY didn't have computerized machine guns.

And all we heard on the American media was what COWARDS those evil INSURGENTS were.

Those MUSLIM insurgents. Of course, they never said MUSLIM. After all, the WAR had nothing to do with RELIGION.

Just for fun Reno, I'll do some quick math for you.

Let's guess very conservatively that out of well over 1,000 attack aircraft, a mere 150 are up in any 24 hour period in Iraq.

Let's guess that they hunt and hunt and hunt but frustratingly average only 5 kills apiece.

Bummer.

That's 750 kills per day.

That comes to a bit over 273,000 a year.

In 5 years that comes to ...

1,368,750

The Iraq 'War' lasted 8 years, 8 months and 28 days.

A war started by 'principled' Christians.

We attacked a country that had not attacked us. Had not THREATENED to attack us.

Thousands and thousands of bombs were dropped on the cities of Iraq in the Christians sneak attack ... just in the first few days.

Dropped on the civilian population.

No warning. Of course.

Hmm.

The principled American Christians massacred tens of thousands just in the first few days.

Including children.

I suppose the 80+% of Americans who were in favor of attacking Iraq were not 'true' Christians.

Nor were all those people involved in massacring children.

Right?

It's unfair to blame CHRISTIANITY ... right?

This was a POLITICAL thing. Religion had nothing to do with it.

Right?

Cuz TRUE Christians would never massacre CHILDREN.

RIGHT??

Total coincidence that all those people were MUSLIM.

Right, Reno?

It's funny you never got to that child marriage thing Reno.

Did it not post on your device?

Maybe I better repeat this.

The conservative Christian lawmakers in 28 states quietly passed legislation making child rape a crime equal to or WORSE than murder ... but said its ok if they are married. No crime.

Are these the Christian principles you refer to?

A few of those states have set the possible punishment at DEATH.

But it's no crime at all as long as they are married.

I guess the fact that it mirrors GOD'S Old Testament law is another coincidence.

Anyway, true Christians would NEVER support child marriage.

Right Reno?

Precisely, Renobenteen. And, if they were not, "by their Creator" would appear nowhere in our founding documents...