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Epic Double standards

Anyone who chants "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," is apparently in denial about their antisemitism because the 'free' bit is taken to mean being in favour of genociding other people rather than wanting to be free from oppression. I guess there is an argument there that this can be interpreted a different way but - honestly - it's a stretch and often used in bad faith.

Meanwhile, Netanyahu explicitly rejects a two-state solution and says that he wants an Israeli state "from the river to the sea."

https://newrepublic.com/post/178243/benjamin-netanyahu-literally-says-from-the-river-to-the-sea

He is also leading a military campaign which is in the process of carrying out an actual genocide and actual ethnic cleansing, which is something that they all claim the famous chant is a hypothetical call for.

Hypocicy in CAPITAL LETTERS.

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Bumbles · 51-55, M

I think each individual who uses the expression can be asked what they mean by it, but I do think using the term is reasonably understood to be more than just civil rights. The graphic of the phrase also lends itself to such an interpretation per the below

It’s not unusual to call for the elimination of Israel. Guitarman does. Being opposed to Zionism, which is common as well, would seem to call for the elimination of Israel, although I suppose someone could make an argument that Israel could still exist, but in some transformed version. I’ve grown so tired of the bad faith defense of “criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic” as no reasonable person believes this, that making the charge is pointless and in fact, a distinction without a difference. Being against the existence of Israel is more the issue.

I don’t think it’s hypocritical to not support the opposite of one’s position, though. Or, to put it another way, if two people bid on a house, one person can’t charge the other person with hypocrisy for also wanting the house. I think the response to this may be "the Palestinians just want to share, not the whole thing." Well, we know that is not Hamas' position and they were the authority in Gaza. Now they will be underground and I assume suicide bombings will resume.

I used to be for a two stare solution, but now I think that is more of a slogan because it will never happen; neither side will compromise on the principal of “the right of return.” I do support a canton like existence for the West Bank and the elimination of all settlements. Come to think of it, that will never happen, either.

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LordShadowfire · M

@Bumbles [quote]I’ve grown so tired of the bad faith defense of “criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic” as no reasonable person believes this...[/quote]
Key word there is reasonable. Palestine haters call me a Nazi all the time.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@LordShadowfire I think we’ve all had our guts punched in this “dialog.” I’ve certainly been accused of vile things.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles Being opposed to Zionism can mean different things too.

You can be opposed to the Zionist project in the sense of an state expanding it's borders and becoming increasingly ethnic nationalist.

You can be opposed to Israel as a Jewish only entity. Even that is no a call for genocide because it would merely involve a country changing, albeit drastically.

I do not know guitarman well but I'd be very surprised if he was in favour of genocide of Jews , which your post seems to imply.

We can waffle about definitions but what would seem to be the critical matter at hand is that Israel is carrying out an actual genocide and doing actual ethnic cleansing, whilst still perpetuating the victim narrative.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 You are right that opposing aspects of Zionism can mean different things, but I think referring to Israelis as "The Zionists" or the "Zionist Occupiers" isn't particularly subtle.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles It's not subtle to call it an apartheid regine either but it's true.

I don't see how calling the Israeli state Zionist is even problematic. They would (and frequently do) describe themselves as Zionists.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 If you're going to deny that the term "Zionist" used in a particular way, an often used way, means more than "homeland for the Jewish people" then that would certainly be interesting. I suppose you may also think that calling a Jewish person "A Jew" in a well known context is also just a neutral descriptor.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

Not all Jews are Zionists and not all (probably most) Zionists are not Jews.

I don't think you believe for a second that I'm in favour of genocide or that I would be against the idea of Jewish people having a homeland. There is nothing that I've ever said that indicates either of those things.

Zionism is a political movement and if you look what is being done in its name, then I can accurately and without apology describe myself as an anti-zionist.

I think I've been pretty clear in what I believe and the (humanitarian) reasons why. I don't think any honest interpretation of anything I've said can equate this with anti-jewish racism.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 I don't think I did accuse you of anti-Jewish racism. Certainly wasn't my intention. I was using an analogy.

Would you agree supporting a Jewish homeland and opposing Zionism is not a typical position?

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles I feel like you are trying to trip me up on semantics here. Maybe it's not your intention but policing language and ascribing different meanings to it just obscures the debate. Actual anti semetism is real and needs fighting but not in this way

I think I've been clear enough. Are you happy that a genocide is being carried out by Israel?

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 I'm really not trying to -- I have a conventional definition of Zionism and was genuinely curious how one supports a Jewish homeland and opposes Zionism, or maybe aspects of it. Maybe it's just a pragmatic thing i.e., Israel exists so no point in undoing it.

Your question of course assumes I think a genocide is being carried out.

LordShadowfire · M

@Bumbles Sorry, but Netanyahu has pretty much declared his intention to eliminate everyone in the region. That kind of counts.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@LordShadowfire The IDF doesn't seem to be following such a declaration, especially as strikes have diminished.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles Genocide is being carried out.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 It's a magic word, isn't it. Ends debate.

LordShadowfire · M

@Bumbles Dude. You want me to find video of him saying it?

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@LordShadowfire If you'd like to, but I don't defend his rhetoric.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles It's the accurate word for the situation. 25,000 dead (which is more than screbinisca) and at least a million close to starvation. There is no debate to be had.

LordShadowfire · M

@Bumbles Then what's the argument about, buddy? Just the fact that @Burnley123 is calling it genocide? I'm not sure I understand.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 I can't debate it, I can only answer whether I am happy about it. Gotcha.

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@LordShadowfire I'm saying the facts on the ground are determinative, but if there was evidence of an actual plan then it needs to come out and be considered.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles You can try to argue. Nobody is stopping you so why not give it a try?

LordShadowfire · M

@Bumbles I don't know if you'd call this evidence, but it's definitely interesting.
https://theconversation.com/gaza-update-netanyahu-calls-for-total-victory-as-international-court-of-justice-ponders-genocide-accusations-against-israel-222027

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles So you are debating intent?

The facts on the ground are plenty enough and normally genocides don't have prior evidence of intent.

This one kind of does:

https://similarworlds.com/countries/israel/4858288-Expel-all-Palestinians-from-Gaza-recommends-Israeli-govt

Bumbles · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 I think the rules of engagement may have been too loose at times, and those who intentionally kill civilians where there is no intelligence of the enemy should be brought to justice, but I don't see a program of genocide, and 2% death rate is too low for a genocide in an urban setting where the enemy is at the same time hiding among civilians.

Further, the number and scope of bombings have decreased when one would expect an increase if genocide was the intention.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Bumbles Also, see the South Africa court case and all the quotes from Israeli politicians.

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